[V.Narayan]

My thanks to all members who have contributed with their posts and enriched this discussion. I am not responding to points made as in this there is no 'more right' or 'more wrong' on the subject. The discussion has focused so far on the employee vs manager situation an important one no doubt, especially for the employee, but it is merely one aspect of this pot boiler. The discussion also has been largely IT sector focused which creates its own slant.

Permit me to make a few points to enrich this discussion. My points and observations are based on having been an employee, a boss and a business owner.

First, work culture in an organization be it a corporate or a Govt. department or NGO gets deeply influenced by the the (i) owners/founders; (ii) the macro environment; (iii) the employees ; and (iv) the managers at all levels. The tone in all aspects set by the owner-founder-CEO category reverberates across the organization in a greatly increased manner. It is not trickle down rather it is a waterfall deluge. If the CEO's tone says 'a' the next level will say 'A' and the third level will make it 'A' and so on. Most Indian organizations and Indian managers have a feudal streak to them. Good or bad this is our culture. There are exceptions and each of us might think we are that exception but feudalism runs rife in our way of working, interacting, talking not just at the work place but in society too. The work place merely reflects that. Our poor civic sense and our feudalism go hand in hand. Both are too deeply ingrained.

Second, the macro environment of economics deeply affects the way a corporation which is fundamentally a business organism, behaves towards its factors of production - capital, labour, technology, suppliers, machinery etc. India as an over populated big economy that is short on global brands, short on path breaking technology and not known for tech innovation relies on cost effectiveness, service, and timeliness and "going the extra mile" to compete. In all our industries that compete in the global arena or that face a competitive market domestically service, cost reductions and going the extra mile are key selling points. Some on this forum might disagree with anecdotal experiences but I am talking about things as a whole and not our one off individual experiences. This 'going the extra mile' and service approach then translates itself into pressure on the organization --> pressure on delivery teams --> pressure on individuals. It is not as if only individual bosses decide to be nasty {though that plays a part too} but all of us are sitting inside the pressure cooker. As employees most of us do not understand or realize just how much the macro environment dictates what happens within an organization. Of course a bad boss can make it worse. MNCs in India running off shore centres have slightly better conditions because they push to make things better for employees and because India is {as of now} still a low cost centre.

Many admire Europe in this respect. And indeed there is a lot to be admired there. Their ability to work 9 to 5 pens down arises, IMHO, from smoother work environments at a national level, competing with technology and brand value and a more evolved work force attitude. In India you see Mumbai has a far more advanced work ethic than say Gorakhpur. The same difference lies between us and Western Europe. But getting them to stretch is a nightmare. That rigidity you never see in India and China.

Third, my favourite, is the pressure and dysfunctionality that stems from the way we work together - Boss to Subordinate & vice versa and Peer to Peer. In some uncanny unsaid way we Indians make working together a bit more complicated than it needs to be leading to more work, co-ordination, waiting, managing peers, sucking up, kicking down and what have you. Before the reader jumps on me allow me to explain. In my erstwhile business we did similar work in our engineering industry in Europe, in Dubai and in India. Same work, same global standards, sometimes same customers. The Europeans worked largely actually 8AM to 4PM, almost never required any inter or intra team co-ordination from me. They refused to work extra hours despite very attractive overtime. To get those extra hours I had to ship in Bulgarians!* In India the same work was handled, in some unfathomable way, more chaotically. Politics, jealousies, power grabs, egos all were at play. It is not as if these emotions do not surface in Europe but somehow it was handled before it broke into a 30-foot wave on the surface.

Indian manager/bosses are not usually world class but in addition to that there is something in our way of working that adds hidden steps and delays and emotion management into the fray. After 4 decades of working life I have not yet figured it out but it is there**. On the other hand Indians s-t-r-e-t-c-h like few others, don't operate in a pens down style and make themselves available to the organization always. The flexibility Indians demonstrate I have rarely seen elsewhere. The same applies to the chaos we create! :-)

I conclude with a quote from a book, 'the French want to work a 35 hour week when the Indians and Chinese are willing to work a 25-hour day'. This may not amuse employees but I can see the point as an ex-business owner.

*Not a great situation. It says something about the work-leisure equation in France & the UK and their competitiveness {more on that some other time}

**For a brief harrowing time I brought in Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka as customers. Their state of organization, ethics, work culture, attitudes, dishonesty, sucking up they expected were more than half century behind ours. It was so frustrating we cancelled those contracts in less than a year. So maybe we are simply evolving as a nation from pre-industrial 100 years ago, to industrial to post industrial and that reflects in the way we work and interact. Just one old man's observations

[am1m]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

In some uncanny unsaid way we Indians make working together a bit more complicated than it needs to be...

You have correctly called it, sir!

So many times I've failed to understand why both sides (employer/HR/manager and employee) operate from a default position of mistrust. Insecurity and lack of training, that leads to a lack of competence.

I also see that we are now dealing with a generation that is not so much in awe of seniority and titles. Which is a good thing. My parent's generation would believe everything anyone in authority told them. My generation would see through the bs, but will still go along and comply, to keep the wheels moving and to get paid. I can see a lot of younger folks ready to call bs when they see it in a manner I still don't have the guts to do. Again, a good thing. Managing these 3 very different generations, sometimes all at the same time is always going to be challenging.

I also think there is so much scope for inspirational leadership and management. For that the workforce needs to see their leaders work on their behalf. It's no point expecting employee loyalty if a company has layoffs every other quarter AND yet the board approves a huge CEO bonus. (Both a matter of public record at any large corporation these days, employees will find out.) I've worked without pay for consecutive months because I saw that my manager was the first to delay their paycheck at a period when we were going through a bad phase.

As Samurai said, a manager is expected to fight for their team, even with higher management. If I see a manager doing that for me, I'll automatically go the extra mile for them too. But for that, senior management has to instill a culture of being able to disagree without repercussions. Even in a business sense, that will pay off in the long run.

[AltoLXI]

"Conscious Unbossing"

Majority of Gen Zers surveyed would rather be individual contributors than become middle managers.

At Google, where 12,000 managers lost their jobs last year, workers have been told it will be harder to get promoted into management roles going forward. Meanwhile, Meta CEO Zuckerberg said that “flattening” its internal hierarchy was core to its restructure last year. He credited Elon Musk as the source of inspiration behind having “fewer layers of management.”

Is it any wonder that when Robert Waters asked young people why they’re turning their noses up at middle management jobs, nearly 70% responded: “Too high stress, low reward.”

“Those new to middle management experience a steep step-up in workload, further expectations to be ‘always available’ to those they manage, as well continuing pressure to hit their own targets,” Bisset explained.

“It’s clear how these roles can prove overwhelming and deter many from taking on the extra responsibility.”

Source

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Does this kind of system exist in India? I am not aware of it in my circle.

In India nobody wants to listen to SME, and the reason is complicated. Here anyone can claim to be SME without actually having the expertise. In fact, WITCH companies are notorious for presenting fake experts, hoping they will pick up skills on the job. Been there, done that, in my youth. And the numerous worthless certificates have made the situation even worse. As a result, no one wants to listen to a SME unless they prove themselves or if the customer is up the creek and is left with no choice.

It is a good and a pertinent question and let me elaborate on the importance of SME.

SME concept is in USA for a fact. It is one of the big 4 under the consulting wing and not the audit wing. In fact the clients we service from the consulting wing are not allowed to avail the services of our company’s audit wing consultants. We all know why after “The Sarbanes–Oxley Act of 2002” but my tenure in the company was prior to 2002.

My company has a branch in India also but as you mentioned here nobody gives respect to SME because of fake resumes/ false recommendation / corrupt corporate recruitments done without doing a proper background check of credentials even at leadership positions.

In USA, SMEs are respected. In fact my background check is done by the company by spending a fortune using third party professionals ( At one of my clients in USA I sit in a nuclear reactor and my expertise is advanced project management scheduling which can handle complex nuclear outage projects that are managed in minutes and not hours or days ). They traced every job I did in my life and they allowed me to enter the premises after a green flag. There were lot of my colleagues rejected with Indian background also in background check. Nobody wants to take a chance especially in Nuclear field.

I am not trying to brag about myself but I switched jobs in big 4 just because one of the big 4 company requested the other big 4 company to relieve me as they are in a deep soup due to non availability of a guy with my kind of skillset. I was surprised that this is the level of respect the big 4 have towards each other that they immediately relieved me
and later I came to know that this is a norm.

Another example I can give is the utility industry in USA which is a highly regulated by the Government. There are SMEs I know who sit in Washington to advise the Government and such people are sourced to the projects in utility industries. Yes. SMEs are there and always in high demand.

Another example I can give is my son attending top level meetings with 4 star generals in Washington when top decisions in the area of AI are taken as my son receives grants by Defence to do research at university.

In India 4 decades back, the professor under whom I worked was consulted by Government of India at Delhi in the important planing commission meetings headed by Dr Swaminathan. These were important meetings where the fate of India is being discussed by SMEs. One needs to be extremely careful in choosing SMEs.

[akhil_007]

Originally Posted by Mystic

Tier 1 IT consulting companies have 2 tracks: one is SME track and other is consulting track.

The SME track has a different work culture in the sense that one can stay at a level by choice refusing promotion

Later I realised on how powerful is an academic job in USA unlike in India where I had experience. My son is allowed to work on multiple corporate jobs in addition to his academic job by just spending small percentage of his time. All this happens only in USA because true research required by Industry happens in universities due to close collaboration.

Very rightly articulated. Most people are unaware of this aspect, even if they work for the top consulting companies(unless they are in based in US)

Agree 100% on your write up regarding academic job in USA. While I have not studied at IIT/IIM, I can share similar example at the opposite end of the spectrum. In one of the top colleges in Karnataka, they have a dedicated Research Lab funded by the Industry. The college decided to throttle the usage of the said lab by not allowing students/scholars to use it. Instead they used it as a Showcase Trophy. After silent protests by the students, they decided to allow usage but reduced internet speed to 1Mbps. Inspite of this, few students managed to publish technical papers in IEEE conferences and Springer Journals receiving lot of appreciations. People from Universities and Industries outside India reached out and inquired about way forward for collaboration with the college and students. The response from the college was totally unexpected. For this collaboration to go ahead, the first step would be offer placement to Final year B.E. students(who were unrelated to the said publications). Needless to say, there was no reply further

Originally Posted by Samurai

Does this kind of system exist in India? I am not aware of it in my circle.

In India nobody wants to listen to SME, and the reason is complicated. Here anyone can claim to be SME without actually having the expertise

Agreed. In India, it is Subject Matter "Experience" rather than "Expertise. And that is true to a large extent. Across all the clients that I have worked in USA, the SME's have almost always been "Non-Indians" and their expertise is simply mind-boggling. Infact, they are problem solvers and advise clients on what is the best way forward. Clients themselves might not have as much depth as these guys have.
PS: Senior SME's billing rates are always in "Surge Pricing" mode

Originally Posted by Mystic

SME concept is in USA for a fact. It is one of the big 4 under the consulting wing and not the audit wing.

Another example I can give is the utility industry in USA which is a highly regulated by the Government. There are SMEs I know who sit in Washington to advise the Government and such people are sourced to the projects in utility industries. Yes. SMEs are there and always in high demand.

Another example I can give is my son attending top level meetings with 4 star generals in Washington when top decisions in the area of AI are taken as my son receives grants by Defence to do research at university.

Agreed. Multiple experts in Electrical Engineering, who happened to hold various ranks in Navy, such as Commander, Lieutenant were brought in to advise for a leading Utility Industry Behemoth. Working with them for a fortnight would make you a better SME than so called SME's in India (No offence to genuine guys)

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by akhil_007

Working with them for a fortnight would make you a better SME than so called SME's in India (No offence to genuine guys)

Oh, don't worry about it. This is nothing compared to the amount of disrespect actual SMEs get in India on a routine basis. A kid with a bunch of worthless certifications but working for a large corporation always gets to override an external SME, unless the said SME was brought in by one of the B4 or MMB.

In fact, most in the Indian industry think SME stands for small and medium enterprises.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Mystic

In the IT industry I worked, my role is SME role and I chose this track by choice as most tier 1 IT consulting companies have 2 tracks: one is SME track and other is consulting track.

The SME track has a different work culture in the sense that one can stay at a level by choice refusing promotion ( personal reasons like spend quality time with children during critical education stage ) so as to avoid more responsibilities which lead one to work after hours. The names of ranks in SME track are kind of funny :

Specialist
Senior Specialist
Master
Leader
Director

OT question - which firm is this - can you share? Also is the SME from a technical (or a domain) standpoint?

The Consulting firms I have been part of; they allow SME/specialist roles but the designations generally are the same as other run-of-the-mill roles.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

OT question - which firm is this - can you share? Also is the SME from a technical (or a domain) standpoint?

The Consulting firms I have been part of; they allow SME/specialist roles but the designations generally are the same as other run-of-the-mill roles.

Deloitte Consulting, San Jose, California. Functional from Domain experience.

[Gfactor]

Just my 2 cents, the best part about working in an IT company is that you can gauge the work coming your way and plan things.

I have personally been a brat in initial 1/3rd of my career, I used to enjoy what I did and only did what I enjoyed as I was quickly able to establish my superiority in terms of knowledge and as someone pointed out in terms of efficiency as well. Once I mastered something I use to pick and choose stressed projects and close it off ahead of time, but I had the best work-life balance, I used to be at office almost 10 to 14 hours everyday, playing table tennis and other games with work friends most of the time. Would voluntarily extend if there is a challenge at hand. But not for trivial things that were not challenging and had colleagues who would happily do it, so at the end of the day what it meant was my colleagues who were not as knowledgeable as me grew up, while I was at the same level as they would finish 10 to 12 small simple tasks while I would have worked only on the challenging 2 or 3 tasks. Never used to follow dress code, always in business casuals and sandals. I enjoyed that period.
What I had to sacrifice for that was countless promotions and vertical growth.

The important part is in understanding what you need, at the initial part of my career it was fun and learning, later I moved on to specific teams like Major Incident Mitigation and Critical resources group and finally into the architects group that let me to be myself without actually stressing over work. I even built my own patented product while working as a Solution Architect in a top MNC.

If you enjoy your work and you have the confidence you can compensate for slacking off by being faster than others and you only answer to yourself and not to your boss, but understand your boss's requirements Better than your boss then you can breeze through any IT role.

[A777R]

Well I have been resisting the urge to type here vowing to not waste more of my time on my previous toxic workplace but I will give just few examples (and trust me these are not the most extreme ones). I was working at one of the fastest growing private banks in India but it was promoter driven and for all intents and purposes, it was a typical "lala" company -

1. The order in which you mention people in CC. There is a super strict seniority and if someone is mentioned later then that means you thought of them last as they are not important. (my seniors have been given several dressing downs for this). We discussed less about the content of the email and more about the sequence of recipients.

2. Addressing people above you with "Ji" at the end. An offence over people have been fired.

3. When this company started receiving negative feedback on Glassdoor, hundreds of branch employees were issued a diktat to write generic positive reviews. Manipulation of records was also done to win the Great Place To Work Award by rerouting the feedback emails received (they are sent randomly to employees) to IT employees and everyone laughed simultaneously on the floor when the award email came in

4. During Mumbai rains, one person fell into a manhole while coming to office in Kurla because the bank does not tolerate WFH and his leave was still deducted for the day. Everyone was called to office during the peak of Covid as the promoter thought people are just earning free money at home and when we showed up at the office, they did not even have sanitizers. The initial few employee deaths were communicated but later on all deaths were hidden and/or blamed on the employee rather than the RTO diktat.

5. 90%+ employees could not utilize even half of the paid leaves they had and the bank called all corporate employees officially to the office on for 2 Saturdays and the third one was often unofficially required.

I have so many more funny and grim instances of working there that I can write a book but I will not spend more time on that. I am so glad that I got this experience early on in my life so now I rarely complain about my present employer and I also know what kind of employer atrocities I can and cannot tolerate.

[am1m]

Something else that could use a bit of a change is the tendency to confuse 'busy' work and work that produces results. This is what leads to Presenteeism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presenteeism).

It's prevalent in every office and culture, but I've seen that in general, US-based managers evaluate things based on outcomes, while a lot of Indian managers evaluate things based on how long a task took. Plus, if you 'reward' someone who is more efficient by piling on work from other, less efficient employees (without a corresponding increase in compensation), all you will do is make that person less efficient and demoralized.

Too many times I've seen a project or task start with badly defined requirements and a deadline, just because the 'boss wants it this way'. Those requirements pass through layers of management with 'Chinese whispers' style distortion, till they reach the developer who doesn't have a clue where to begin. And no one is willing to push back up the chain of command to ask questions, including "does this even make sense to do?"

[V.Narayan]

No sleep for 45 days, barely eaten: 42-year-old man working at Bajaj Finance dies of 'work pressure' - commit suicide

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India...6fd28526&ei=18

Excerpts...

A 42-year-old worker at Bajaj Finance died by suicide on Sunday, citing unbearable work pressure and mental torture by his seniors. He locked his wife and two children in a room before taking the drastic step.

In his suicide note, Tarun Saxena details his struggles to meet recovery targets, despite his best efforts, and the humiliation he faced from his seniors.

Police said that his body was found by the house help along with the note addressed to his wife Megha.

"Tarun Saxena was working at Bajaj Finance as an area manager. He committed suicide on Sunday using a dupatta," Superintendent of Police (City) Gyanendra Kumar Singh told news agency PTI. "A suicide note was also recovered from him in which he alleged that he was given a higher target by seniors, and pressure was continuously being mounted on him to achieve the said target," he added.

The family is alleging that "mental torture" by his seniors led Tarun to take his life.
Tarun's cousin, Gaurav Saxena, alleged that his seniors, including the regional manager and national manager at the company, mentally tortured him during a virtual conference a day before he died.

"In the morning, he was mentally tortured by his regional manager and national manager. Abuses were also hurled at him during a conference, which was held virtually. He was quite frustrated since that (Saturday) night, following which he took the extreme step (on Sunday)," Gaurav told reporters. "He was told that in case of non-fulfillment of the target, he would have to pay from his pocket. He was assigned areas like Moth and Talbehat for collection, which are rural," he added.

Very sad. This is a clear cut and direct case of work pressure induced death. Other than collections being a difficult & unpleasant job this employee may also have been under pressure not to lose his job given the family he had to support.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by A777R

Well I have been resisting the urge to type here vowing to not waste more of my time on my previous toxic workplace but I will give just few examples

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

No sleep for 45 days, barely eaten: 42-year-old man working at Bajaj Finance dies of 'work pressure' - commit suicide

All these toxic stories from non-IT offices are horrifying.

I don't think most IT employees can imagine working in such places.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Samurai

All these toxic stories from non-IT offices are horrifying.

I don't think most IT employees can imagine working in such places.

I agree, IT has a far less demanding work culture than most old school finance or manufacturing. While this is inherentlly desirable, it leads to the occasional sniggers aimed at 'mollycoddled' IT workers. IT employees are simply the beneficiaries of a market that can sustain their employment and paycheque needs. In the long run, we should hope to achieve some sort of balance across all forms of employment.

[Samurai]

So timely for this thread... this ex-Amazon employee creates a video on Amazon work culture.

https://youtu.be/xNaqrXmsQZo