[ike]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

I'm not sure about the rationale of the actions today from either side. The Indians clearly indicated yesterday they did not want to escalate,

India had clearly said while we do not wish to escalate, any military attacks will be responded to appropriately. The onus was on Pak to not make a bad situation worse, but that is what they have done. I hope this does not reach a point of no return.

[NomadSK]

Looks like the cryptic message from the former Army chief "Picture abhi baki hai" is true, hope all of this gets over soon, without much damages. Unfortunately loser Pakistan has nothing much to lose .

Prayers for the innocent people staying near the border areas of either sides.

[Sk8r]

Saw this few months back - “ if there will be a world war 3 now, world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones …. “

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by ike

India had clearly said while we do not wish to escalate, any military attacks will be responded to appropriately.

Lets go back to Balakot. The Pakistani response did attack our military, but we let it go - we already had made the point that terrorist strikes will not be left unanswered. That was sufficient.

When Pakistani missiles/drones were blocked across the western sector today, that was a great story for our armed forces and their Russian equipment. We could have shown footage of the rocket show like the Israelis do with their Patriot defence system, and declared victory. Russians would have given free lifetime warranty in gratitude.

Aggression without a purpose will hit diminishing returns rather quickly.

[RaghuVis]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

The Indians clearly indicated yesterday they did not want to escalate, and the Pakistani defence minister said they had exacted their revenge during the operation itself

It was clear that one party was lying to start the next round. You can guess who.

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

Both sides had a satisfactory story to take back home and call it a day.

Now we know they did not have any story to take back yesterday. India did not mention that this was going to be a one-off case. This time, the Indian government seems to be more resolute from the day of the unspeakable tragedy. Moreover, what is satisfactory in this one-off strike?

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

NSAs engaging each other was encouraging too.

I guess I missed this. Can you point out the news about Mr Doval speaking to his Pakistani counterpart?

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

Even if they wanted to retaliate, Pakistan did not have to attack so many sites in India.

Are you saying it would have been OK if only few sites were attacked?

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

Nor did India have to attack places as far away as Gujranwala or even the Lahore air defence, both of which are irrelevant to the counter terror focus so far.

I am not sure what you are expecting. Are you saying that India should only target terrorist sites even when the other party is trying to hit both military/civilian sites?

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

Hot heads on both sides need a time out. Else soon they will be treated like vagabonds by the 'grown ups' with a rap on each knuckle.

I must say, this statement is in bad taste. it has been 75+ years and we still are treated inferior by our own. In times like these, even if we are not supporting our government, let us not belittle them.

PS: When it comes to Pakistan, the current government is NOT going to listen to anyone else. I repeat. Anyone. Most of the world leaders are aware of that.

[FlankerFury]

Originally Posted by RaghuVis

I guess I missed this. Can you point out the news about Mr Doval speaking to his Pakistani counterpart?

TribuneIndia | India Pak NSAs in touch

FirstPost | NSA Doval speaks to Pakistani counterpart

TheTatva | NSA Doval speaks to NSA Asim Malik

[notme]

MEA Denies Contact Between Indian and Pakistani NSAs Following Ishaq Dar's Claim.

Source: https://www.firstpost.com/india/oper...-13886126.html

[RaghuVis]

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

TribuneIndia | India Pak NSAs in touch

FirstPost | NSA Doval speaks to Pakistani counterpart

TheTatva | NSA Doval speaks to NSA Asim Malik

Thanks for this. if you note, these are based on news bytes given by the Pakistan Deputy PM to some news outlets, and these are all just quotes. I am sure if there were talks, the Indian government would have given a readout, as it is one of the most important events considering the situation, and India would want everyone to get the exact message and tone of what Mr Doval really said. Interestingly, in today's press conference by Foreign Secretary Mr Vikram Misri, the same point was brought up by someone from the media side, and he laughed off, saying, "I also heard that there were NSA talks" in a sarcastic way.

Again, as a thumb rule, at these times, we should stick to what the government says to us rather than quoting anyone else, be it good or bad news.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

FirstPost | NSA Doval speaks to Pakistani counterpart

Originally Posted by notme

MEA Denies Contact Between Indian and Pakistani NSAs Following Ishaq Dar's Claim.

Pakistani NSA is not an ordinary NSA. Asim Malik is also the Chief of ISI. As a matter of fact, his NSA appointment was done after the Pahalgam terrorist attack.

This implies that Pakistan wanted to enable backchannel communication between ISI Chief and Ajit Doval, possibly to prevent hostilities from spiralling out of control. Also, this enables India to have talks with Pakistan directly on terrorism (since ISI is the planner/ backer of terrorism). https://www.deccanherald.com/world/p...-india-3519684

[ike]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

Lets go back to Balakot. The Pakistani response did attack our military, but we let it go - we already had made the point that terrorist strikes will not be left unanswered. That was sufficient.

The point was made but not taken unfortunately. If that was "sufficient", we would have seen Pakistan desisting from sponsoring violence in India. I for one have no doubt that Pakistan did not learn anything from Balakot, it only grew more belligerent.

When Pakistani missiles/drones were blocked across the western sector today, that was a great story for our armed forces and their Russian equipment. We could have shown footage of the rocket show like the Israelis do with their Patriot defence system, and declared victory. Russians would have given free lifetime warranty in gratitude.
Aggression without a purpose will hit diminishing returns rather quickly.

Again, it depends on what you want to project. The Israelis are known to go great lengths to get their enemies for good, not just release videos of missiles being intercepted. Bear in mind with the advent of AI this can be practically made by anyone these days. What do you think the world would have thought if India released a video and did a victory dance?

The message to Pakistan today is that they cannot kill Indians with impunity and any aggression will be dealt with appropriately. I'm quite confident that the decision to respond was taken at the highest levels after exploring and debating all the options. The aggression was not without purpose, it was as the foreign secretary mentioned, measured, non escalatory and focused.

Whether Pakistan will wake up and smell the coffee is up to them. I'm all for ending violence, however it takes two to tango.

[volkman10]

India politely rejects Trump's offer to mediate as tensions escalate with Pakistan.


Link:

[AZT]

My biggest fear about these escalations is a passenger plane getting hit by an errant missile. Azerbaijan airlines and Ukranian Airlines are fairly recent incidents.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

Lets go back to Balakot. The Pakistani response did attack our military, but we let it go - we already had made the point that terrorist strikes will not be left unanswered. That was sufficient.

When Pakistani missiles/drones were blocked across the western sector today, that was a great story for our armed forces and their Russian equipment. We could have shown footage of the rocket show like the Israelis do with their Patriot defence system, and declared victory. Russians would have given free lifetime warranty in gratitude.

Aggression without a purpose will hit diminishing returns rather quickly.

I don't think any countries defense operate this way. There was heavy shelling across the border and civilian and military personal are losing lives which is low intensity and in a narrow area. Our armed forces just responded with same force.

If the other side can engage in widening the theater and target north and western parts of India, it has to be proportionately responded and which was done now.

Moreover, I think now the medium intensity conflicts moved to drone warfare which is new here (after Ukraine) and hence very less air combat at this stage. Probably stage is set by testing the air defense capabilities of each side and update the war scenarios. A lot would have been understood by our response as well. If we leave it as that our defense systems works as intended, please expect drone incursions as new way of proxy war.

Hope both sides analyse the results and stops at this level to avoid loss of men and material.

[kaps454]

Originally Posted by RaghuVis

While we discuss on the truth and verification, please note today's events.


[*]Even now, almost 15 hours after the strikes, all 3 major so-called media outlets, be it CNN or BBC or Reuters, are still carrying the news that 5 Indian Jets were brought down. How is that possible when ISPR claims neither country crossed borders? Did they not think of verifying with the Indian government? [/list]
The stark reality is that every news organization in the world is a propaganda tool for their highest bidder. There is not a single truthful or fair news outlet as of today. So, as someone mentioned above, at these difficult times, it is best to get information directly from the Indian government.

Please remember, keeping all the politics aside, India is one of the rarest countries that has never attacked a nation first in the last 77 years. Like it or not, we are an extremely responsible nation that will continue to be responsible.

My thoughts and prayers are with the people on the frontline, their families back home, especially their parents who are going through one of the most anxious moments ever! Jai Hind!

Hi,
A very old adage "the first casualty of war is truth"
Indian and Paki aircraft can target each other using BVR A to A weapons while staying safely within their respective airspaces. India probably targeted pakistan using "stand-off" weapons, all platforms staying in Indian airspace.

An aircraft did fall in Punjab somewhere, a person died, 6-7 injured, one shifted to a higher center and then the news was censored. Since no word of it came out, probably a Rafael or Su 30 MKI. The press statement said "all pilots are safe". Which leaves out loss of platfrom or non flying personel open to interpretation. So a half truth.
regards kaps454

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Pakistani NSA is not an ordinary NSA. Asim Malik is also the Chief of ISI. As a matter of fact, his NSA appointment was done after the Pahalgam terrorist attack.

This implies that Pakistan wanted to enable backchannel communication between ISI Chief and Ajit Doval, possibly to prevent hostilities from spiralling out of control. Also, this enables India to have talks with Pakistan directly on terrorism

Originally Posted by volkman10

India politely rejects Trump's offer to mediate as tensions escalate with Pakistan.

They are not in a position to afford a prolonged conflict.
Very soon, they will initiate contact to de-escalate and will also demand a face saver. And I am pretty sure, India is not going to give them any (face saver I mean).