[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by rajeshks777

I spent 18 years in IT in both GCC and Services company, went for a permanent Govt job and then quit that to rejoin Services company what will you call me. I have seen both worlds, saw the salary ups and downs. Now I have spent 23 years working and planning to retire in another 2-5 years.
[/b]

I'd say that you did what you had to. Each individual's circumstances are unique and hence the decision making. You have been there and done that.
I have been in so many things, starting with IT, I can totally relate with you.

[Fuldagap]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pbTjLH584I

A relevant take on middle class IT aspirants, Infosys, TCS, salaries and inflation.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

A relevant take on middle class IT aspirants, Infosys, TCS, salaries and inflation.

Frankly, I am struggling to understand the relevance of the video. The gentleman on the video is asking the WITCH companies to discard the notion of supply and demand, and indulge in socialism?

The kind of work done by WITCH companies doesn't require anything beyond 10th pass + vocation training on IT services. I have hired BCA graduates who have regularly outperformed engineers, after proper mentoring and on-job training. Engineering degree doesn't really prepare students to be productive in IT services from day one. If people are spending too much money on BE/B.Tech to only join WITCH companies in the end, I don't know whom should be blamed.

I was recently talking a senior Infosys person, who told me that Infosys has plenty of people are just sitting permanently on bench, but can't be fired. They are too useless to be put on any client project. But the labour law doesn't allow them to be fired unless they underperform on a client project. A catch-22! Why did this happen? Infosys outsourced their recruiting, allowing all kind of unwashed masses to enter the company.

Why are WITCH companies paying 3L for freshers? Because there is plenty of supply at that price. If they are to pay 8L instead as the video suggests, they have to raise the bar, and hire the kind of candidates who can be productive on day one. That will severely limit the pool of candidates, barely 5% of the freshers would be capable of that. Such a small number will not satisfy the needs of WITCH companies.

So they are forced to drop the bar significantly to match their recruitment needs. Now, if someone is suggesting that pay should remain at 8L despite hiring significantly poorer candidates, they should explain why the company should indulge in this charity, and what do they gain from it. WITCH companies are businesses, and as long as they pay above minimum wages, which they do, they cannot be asked any higher without business justification.

The video also claimed that some company was paying below minimum wage. I don't think so. Here is the Karnataka minimum wage for 2025: https://factohr.com/minimum-wages-in-india/karnataka/

I don't think any WITCH company is paying lower than minimum wage. But if the demand & supply situation forced them to pay 8L or higher, they will.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Frankly, I am struggling to understand the relevance of the video. The gentleman on the video is asking the WITCH companies to discard the notion of supply and demand, and indulge in socialism?......

If companies only need vocational-level skills, why advertise or prefer engineers in the first place? Let it be open to all to participate in the hiring process.

If engg degrees don't prepare productive candidates then using this inefficiency to justify low pay is exploitative. It's like selling a poorly made product and blaming the raw materials without improving the process. The so called IT companies should engage with academia.

I was hired at a slightly better salary at an entry level role after campus placement from one such giant company. Something told me inside not to fall for the trap. It was a very hard decision letting go of a job. Immense pressure from peers if not from every where else and I went to study further. After this got campus placed again but in consulting and a fantastic american company. Did not realise the importance just then though. Spoke with a lot of friends who were already in IT from previous college and ine of the wiser friends made me understand and realise that I had landed safely. He would be reaching that role atleast a couple of years further which I was lucky enough to have cracked just after 2 more years of study. Pay was ok, work culture and the learning experience was of global standard not to mention the associated perks and future career outlook.

I have know B.Tech. IITans also working at 30k per month at Infosys. Who could in their right minds explain that? Certainly the candidates would be utterly stupid or there was something more beyond their control. Most of those 'stupid' ones made better of those bad times and made fantastic careers or businesses or class A govt jobs later on. All because they were indeed intelligent and brilliant, only their time was bad and had to accept whatever was being offered. Middle class has always been with struggling stories even when the student is brilliant.

If the senior HR personnel at Infosys thinks that they can't fire benched people (they do so all the time though), it is a reflection of extremely bad worforce planning. It is a recruitment and filtering problem to hire such candidates. If the companies are hiring, paying and not able to use them, it is management inefficiency problem and their failure. Labour laws are there to prevent such arbitrory sackings in a country where social security is weak and needs necessary safeguards.

If the 3L INR pay is there because the supply exists is true in free market terms. However, you are ignoring that power imbalance distorts the labour market. There is zero leverage with a fresher negotiating a giant IT company. The companies contribute to systemic downward pressure on education ROI and the aspirations of the youth.
Also, wages are not always market driven. Some pay higher than the market to attract, retain and upskill when better outcomes are required.

If paying 8L for poor quality candidates is touted as charity, then it is quite misleading.
No one asked the companies to pay such amount for mediocrity. The entire business model revolves around underpaying freshers while earning billions. You missed some charts in the video I suppose. This is not only unsustainable but quite unethical. That's what the video is trying to portray. It won't be 'charity' but redistribution of profits from top executives and shareholders to low level employees.

They don't pay below minimum wage. True. Minimum wage is the floor not a benchmark.
In metro cities, 3L is barely survival or maybe not at all survival without support from folks back home. Hiring engg grads and paying them like physical labourers while at the ssme time charging top dollar to clients, it is a mismatch between value capture and creation.

It is dignity vs exploitation. WITCH model is based on scale and low costs and is certainly not beyond criticism. These are the same companies people see or the companies themselves pretend as nation builders while in reality they are into low value labour arbitrage. Long term value creation means investing in people, paying fairly and respecting talent. A newbie reading this would have his heart shattered that all the hardwork he did to get an entry level job could have been done by a 10th pass. It is a cold response/verdict which dents the socio-economic balance.

Employment is already in a crisis. Young workers are the future of our country. A more evolved, ethical and sustainable view of things is the need of the hour.

Inflation doubled (97% rise) , yet the 3L salary stands tall in the last 15-20 years. Are we discussing socialism or capitalism with ethics, is a persective i guess.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

If companies only need vocational-level skills, why advertise or prefer engineers in the first place? Let it be open to all to participate in the hiring process.

Well, it is a free country. Why they are asking for engineers can be easily explained:
1) It enables applying for H1B when required.
2) It filters out the applicants by a great deal. If they ask for 10th pass only, at least 10 times more people will apply. Since my company is in a 3rd tier city, we ask BCA/BSc as the minimum qualification. If I asked 10th pass, even my company won't able handle the volume of applicants. FYI, we have seen no difference in BCA/BSc vs MSc/MCA/BE/ME candidates. Almost all of them need 6 months of training before we can put on a task, irrespective of whether they did 3-4-5-6 years of college.

In your post, you are repeatedly using terms like exploitative, ethics, etc. These are aspirational goals, not business goals. I was a low paid TCS employee myself for 6 years, so I don't need a video telling how WITCH companies operate.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

If engg degrees don't prepare productive candidates then using this inefficiency to justify low pay is exploitative. It's like selling a poorly made product and blaming the raw materials without improving the process. The so called IT companies should engage with academia.

Many companies do that, not because of ethics, but due to sheer desperation. Zoho gone gone one step further and is hiring them from highschool and training them to become Zoho employees. Note that they won't give any degree, which can be used to join some other company.

Do you provide any Degree or Certificate upon course completion?
We are NOT affiliated to nor have a tie-up with any conventional university, and we do not provide degrees.

Instead, at Zoho, we look for skillsets and abilities more than for paper credentials. And the world is warming up to the change too! Many leading companies have started looking for real talent and experience than for certificates. Our curriculum changes twice a year, and the day our students enter the team as employees, we proudly celebrate as the Ungraduation Day!

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

Also, wages are not always market driven. Some pay higher than the market to attract, retain and upskill when better outcomes are required.

You explained a market driven concept, after saying it is not market driven. Paying higher for better outcome is market driven.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

If paying 8L for poor quality candidates is touted as charity, then it is quite misleading.

Just paying higher for same outcome is charity.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

It is dignity vs exploitation. WITCH model is based on scale and low costs and is certainly not beyond criticism.... Are we discussing socialism or capitalism with ethics, is a persective i guess.

WITCH companies are doing business, ethics are a luxury that even Narayan Murthy hasn't been able to practice, despite all the preaching.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Well, it is a free country. Why they are asking for engineers can be easily explained:
1) It enables applying for H1B when required.
2) It filters out the applicants by a great deal. If they ask for 10th pass only, at least 10 times more people will apply. Since my company is in a 3rd tier city, we ask BCA/BSc as the minimum qualification. If I asked 10th pass, even my company won't able handle the volume of applicants. FYI, we have seen no difference in BCA/BSc vs MSc/MCA/BE/ME candidates. Almost all of them need 6 months of training before we can put on a task, irrespective of whether they did 3-4-5-6 years of college.

What can be easily explained seems to be still misunderstood by you. Having been in the same shoes once, you still can't seem to understand the issue. I guess you loathe it so much you are in denial the problem exist and the real reason behind it.

Originally Posted by Samurai

In your post, you are repeatedly using terms like exploitative, ethics, etc. These are aspirational goals, not business goals. I was a low paid TCS employee myself for 6 years, so I don't need a video telling how WITCH companies operate.

Please skip the video. The video is for the middle class suffering at the hands of poweful organisations. They hire 'interns' from nearby colleges at peanuts of 'stipends' and then keep them on the job after say 3 months at 15k per month salary.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Many companies do that, not because of ethics, but due to sheer desperation. Zoho gone gone one step further and is hiring them from highschool and training them to become Zoho employees. Note that they won't give any degree, which can be used to join some other company.

Citing Zoho when the video is about WITCH is not apt. You want them to hide behind a Zoho now?
It'll be fantastic if they all went the Zoho way as well.
[l
You explained a market driven concept, after saying it is not market driven. Paying higher for better outcome is market driven.
Just paying higher for same outcome is charity. [/quote]
You should read again what I wrote. I was as clear as possible. You can hand pick elements of the text and quote out of context all you like.

Originally Posted by Samurai

WITCH companies are doing business, ethics are a luxury that even Narayan Murthy hasn't been able to practice, despite all the preaching.

'ethics are a luxury', you said it and I got it.
Narayan Murthy is a shrewd businessman that's it. That's what my text previously tried to say. Don't pretend to be nation builders when you are just another exploitative company.
Newbies do not understand that. They are under a lot of and different sorts of pressures.
Whoever marketed and maintained the image of Murthy needs a standing ovation.

Again nothing against you, the video has a lot of charts that you aeem to have missed.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

What can be easily explained seems to be still misunderstood by you. Having been in the same shoes once, you still can't seem to understand the issue. I guess you loathe it so much you are in denial the problem exist and the real reason behind it.
Please skip the video. The video is for the middle class suffering at the hands of poweful organisations.

Whether I understand Indian IT industry or not, it is best left to BHPians to decide. That video is not from someone from the industry, that explains the misunderstanding of that person.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Whether I understand Indian IT industry or not, it is best left to BHPians to decide. That video is not from someone from the industry, that explains the misunderstanding of that person.

The person in the video is not from the IT sector is same like saying Clarkson is not from an auto manufacturer.

[PreludeSH]

With entry level jobs being at the mercy of new AI and tools, not sure what service companies will do.

If we think most of the jobs does not need any great skills, its easily replaceable and jobs might not even exist since AI will take care of that.

I don't want to demean IT services generally. I have worked as client with some companies and they have lots of good talented people.

[frewper]

I have read most of the comments above and also seen the video, (well not all of it, but I get the idea). I feel @Samurai has very well articulated as to why things are the way it is, and I do agree with him.
Though I wish well with my responses, I do apologise in advance if I am too direct.

Also, just out of curiostiy, if the companies were to pay a good salary, would one then argue that a company is responsible to send the employee on a H1B visa to the US, given that its the Holy Grail for SWEs in the country?

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

If companies only need vocational-level skills, why advertise or prefer engineers in the first place?Let it be open to all to participate in the hiring process.

Executing that would be immensely challenging and come with a hefty price tag. Businesses would gladly offer competitive salaries if they could identify suitable candidates instantly. However, the current hiring landscape requires extensive effort: reviewing hundreds of resumes and investing 4-5 hours per candidate, easily accumulating 500 working hours to fill just a couple of positions. This necessitates a cost-conscious and strategic hiring strategy, especially given the potential for a new hire to depart quickly. This complex process applies when recruiting specialized roles like engineers. Therefore, why would any organization willingly interview non engineers? when every single applicant, the vast majority—99.(5 9s)% (pun intended)—will be rejected? The sheer volume of thousands of potential candidates would be unmanageable.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

If engg degrees don't prepare productive candidates then using this inefficiency to justify low pay is exploitative. It's like selling a poorly made product and blaming the raw materials without improving the process. The so called IT companies should engage with academia.

It's simply not a company's responsibility to guarantee education quality. That duty falls squarely on the government, which should ensure all institutions, public or private, provide a quality education.

Equally accountable are parents who believe their sole task is to send their child to engineering school, expecting a high salary and an H1B visa in return. Children truly need proper guidance and direction. Parents must understand that good grades alone don't guarantee a great job. While a lack of information might have been an excuse decades ago, it's painful to see this misconception persist today when information is so readily available.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The entire business model revolves around underpaying freshers while earning billions. You missed some charts in the video I suppose. This is not only unsustainable but quite unethical. That's what the video is trying to portray. It won't be 'charity' but redistribution of profits from top executives and shareholders to low level employees.

And what about risks? What about the risk that the promoters take, to start a company from scratch. To leave a stable job and risk everything that he has achieved till date. What is the reward for the promoter of the company for such an endevour?

No one in this world has started a company to distribute wealth.
The intention of running a business is to generate a profit, for the promoters and shareholders, and great salaries and bonuses for the top executives who run the business. Thats it!
Any business owner who has said otherwise is lying through their teeth.

Unfortunately low level employes dont count. A very harsh truth, and I am sorry for saying this, is that low level employees are only hired to get the menial jobs done, and is true in any kinds of organisation.

Unfortunately, with the democratization of technology, writing code will be a menial job. Architecting your code will be more of a specialized job.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

In metro cities, 3L is barely survival or maybe not at all survival without support from folks back home. Hiring engg grads and paying them like physical labourers while at the some time charging top dollar to clients, it is a mismatch between value capture and creation.

This is a classic demand-supply equation—why isn't that clear? If Infosys pays a SE in Bangalore ₹3 lakhs, it's because there are plenty of engineers eager to accept that offer.

I know of a company that offers a ₹10 lakh referral bonus to employees who bring in the right talent. Why such a high bonus? Because it's still incredibly difficult to find truly skilled software engineers. Don't you think this company would be eager to hire from Infosys if there was an untapped supply of quality engineers readily available at Infosys who hates their job?

Do you see the difference here? Just because kid is an engineer doesnt mean, he deserves a high paying job.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

Employment is already in a crisis. Young workers are the future of our country. A more evolved, ethical and sustainable view of things is the need of the hour.

You're right, the standard operating procedure for landing a good job is completely gone. But it's crucial to understand that companies aren't to blame for this, nor will higher salaries fix the problem.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The video is for the middle class suffering at the hands of poweful organisations. They hire 'interns' from nearby colleges at peanuts of 'stipends' and then keep them on the job after say 3 months at 15k per month salary.

These powerful organisation are the ones who have almost all their clients abroad and get all the work done in the country. They are the ones who have atleast bought the jobs here. Do note that any money that the company has saved by lower salary has to pay corporate taxes and then eventually divident distribution taxes.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

Narayan Murthy is a shrewd businessman that's it. That's what my text previously tried to say. Don't pretend to be nation builders when you are just another exploitative company.

We need to stop using Mr. Murthy as the go-to example whenever Infosys comes up. He retired 15 years ago, and it's unfair to blame him for current low salaries. Considering he started in the 80s during the "license raj" era, what he achieved is commendable.
Infosys as of today is public company. If anyone is to blame, its the board.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The person in the video is not from the IT sector is same like saying Clarkson is not from an auto manufacturer.

Clarkson comment's on the usabilty of cars and not how it is manufactured. He doesnt care how fast the assembly line runs.
And more over he comments on past events of the car industry and not what is going to happen.

This thread is focused on whats happening in the IT industry and what is going to happen.

If any 'Software Clarkson' wants to comment on the usabilty of a software product, most welcome. He will find a lot of patch work done if he reviews any 'Enterprise Software' out there. But I can assure you the customer is not complaining. Customer is happy the work is done.

[hitzscofield]

Expecting companies to pay anything beyond what the demand supply equation provides for is expecting a lot. Like others have pointed out, why would they and why should they? Imagine one of the WITCH becoming generous and offering 8L packages. Its margins will nosedive and who will benefit - the rest of WITCH.
As for the employees, I’ve witnessed smart ones growing internally and some even jump to Product orgs and GCCs and improve their pay. Today, both Product orgs and GCCs employ millions themselves so it isn’t like engineers are left without options.

[NiInJa]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The person in the video is not from the IT sector is same like saying Clarkson is not from an auto manufacturer.

Read all the above posts starting from the video itself.
Clarkson comparison aside, the person in the video really does not know how the IT industry in India works. To understand this, he will have to first start from understanding a basic fact that an IT job is much much different from other jobs in the market.

I have 15 years of experience in IT, of middle class origin, started as a associate in a mid tier company and now taking interviews of freshers so like many others here, I have some observations to share

First off, I agree that the bare minimum starting package should be a bit more than 3.0L, BUT, this is where is gets tricky:

- There are too many people ready to work at starting package of 3L, why?

- Because, They just want to get into the field first as they know what lies ahead.

- Once they are in the field, depending on how smart/intelligent/hardworking they are, they can scale up in terms of knowledge, exposure, skills . IT industry is different in this aspect. You can be a Java developer to start with, but can easily switch to a different technology or even carve an area of specialization for yourself. I have seen CS engineer kids with good communication skills getting into product marketing that requires absolutely no coding language knowledge. I've seen people with nothing more than just vast Excel and VB scripting knowledge becoming star players in accounting department. The options are many. Some get it by sheer luck, or some have to work it out, the lazy ones in this category can stick around and keep doing the bare minimum without adding much to their skillset.

- With the above point in mind, the ones who are smart/hard working can get salary hikes of up to 300% even if they don't try too hard. There is a high demand for smart people in IT and this top tier is scooped up without much advertisement. The video does not show how salary of a good IT resource increases exponentially in a matter of few years. He cannot, because it is a well kept secret. I have seen people drawing same salaries at levels which are two positions up or down: A senior consultant level (L6) drawing the same salary as a Manager (L4) for example. We have taken in candidates who are too young to get that fat salary, but they simply deserve it as we see high potential in them. A mediocre guy with mediocre skills will not get offered the same salary. This happens a lot in IT industry compared to other industries once you have a reasonable experience to show in your CV.

As others mentioned, this is a supply-demand game with one more ingredient: quality of freshers to begin with. As an example: Back in 2008 when we started, 95 students of the 100 hired by Infosys were good and made it through the training. Today, if Infy were to hire 100 students from a college, they will find that only 70 or 60 are making it through the training. I personally have interviewed freshers from 2022 (covid time graduates), MCA/BE people struggle with writing basic SQL query or understanding a batch script. The quality of technical education has degraded drastically unfortunately in many colleges. There is an uphill task of reskilling these freshers. If the quality of all students were top notch, the starting salary would be much higher, but at the same time the number of people hired would go down.

Also, it is funny how these WITCH companies work and one of the reason why I am not much excited about them. For the most part, they are so much focused on their bottom-line that your potential may not be valued. My own story: After 2 years at my first company, I interviewed for Infosys, but got rejected. My senior who had joined Infy earlier got some insider information from the HR and he said this: You were too good for them. They knew you would ask 6-7 Lakhs, but if they get two average guys asking 3 or 4 lakhs each they can deploy them on two different projects! Few months I later got into one of the big-4 where the interview ended with this line: You know too much for your experience, we want you onboard as soon as possible

Also note this, not many freshers are complaining about this meagre entry point salary. There is reason for that. If this was a real big problem, we would be looking at protests and civil unrest like the Kejriwal-Anna Hajare revolution that happened in 2010-11.

[Vishal.R]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The person in the video is not from the IT sector is same like saying Clarkson is not from an auto manufacturer.

IT service is "industry". Cars are "consumer products". Even if someone is not from auto industry can comment about cars since companies advertise and sell their cars for people. Is Clarkson qualified to comment on salaries of workers in auto industry? NO

[wocanak]

There are several points which need to be considered to get the full picture:

1. Not all freshers are paid ~3 Lakhs, even WITCH (and other services companies) often pay up to 6 Lakhs in certain colleges. There is a much larger pool of recruiters who pay anywhere from 3 to 30 Lakhs for freshers and I am not even counting outliers or foreign placements.
2. This is in part because there can be that much quality difference between colleges, streams and people. I have seen the difference with freshers paid ~3 lakhs and freshers paid 12 lakhs, again on an average, there always exceptions.
3. In colleges with large in take (e.g VIT, Vellore campus with 1000+ CSE students), the top can get tier 1 jobs 15 to 20l, going down to WITCH jobs and the bottom struggle to get placed.
4. Students take the best job they get and it is not doom and gloom if you don't get a top paying job. The fastest salary growth is often in the 2 to 5 years range, so you get a second chance. If you are really good, you may even catch up, as the top paid freshers don't get as much hikes.
5. This growth opportunity is the reason why salary comparison with jobs like driver, delivery personnel, etc are not correct. They don't offer such growth possibilities.
6. These jobs are great for those who couldn't/didn't motivate themselves to academically excel, but can do well in the real world. For the employers the low salaries encourage them to take risks, recruit more and from wider colleges.

At least on this aspect, this is a classic "double thank you" moment in economics, with neither side exploiting the other or doing favors. There are many other aspects of the industry which can be faulted, but not this.

Edit: oh, all this is the scene so far without much impact from AI on the entry level jobs, who knows how that will change.

[DigitalOne]

Check the graphic below. Bengaluru's Electronics City, which hosts huge offices of 3 WITCH companies, sees very low RE prices compared to the eastern parts like Sarjapur, Bellandur, Varthur, or Whitefield. The real decline of the purchasing power of WITCH company employees is quite apparent.

There was a time, a decade and half back, when Electronics city had a reputation on par with Whitefield as a RE hotspot. People who would have flats then would have negative real returns now .



(Image Courtesy: Times of India, Real Estate promotion supplement)

Of course, the fact that E-City is poorly connected to the airport is also a contributing factor to this.