[ronford]

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

It is difficult to know the volume of transactions on any portal in the initial days. I don't think a private cloud going down is such a big issue. Same has been the case for Flipkart/Amazon during their initial sale days.

The second software you are talking about is Finacle. It is being used by all the top companies world-wide now including Indian companies such as ICICI and Paytm. I am not privy to what version the post office is running or the nitty gritty of their systems.

It's not only about the system going down. It's also about the UI and how things have been built out. Compare the passport website and IndiaPost and you'll see it immediately.

[CDART]

I actually manage 2 groups of employees in India.

Group A, needs to know software engineering + maths + finance.
Group B, are software engineers knowing C++/Java.

An engineer in Group A average around 40lpa at 4 years of work ex. This average is true for an engineer at 10 years in Group B. A 10 yrs work ex engineer in Group A, probably earns around 80lpa.

An equivalent engineer at 4 yrs from Group A in the UK costs £150K. While the one at 10yrs from Group B will average in the low £130K.

There is a significant cost save for us by hiring engineers in Group A and paying them market leading rates. This ensures that our attrition numbers are low, the work quality is not impacted and our engineers are happy (purely based on the quality of life) they can afford.

When I look at the India challenges from our companies viewpoint, they are:
- A good number of senior engineers, give up coding and are happy managing juniors. They stop investing in themselves and learning new skills. Despite the hefty numbers we are ready to pay senior engineers, we consider ourselves lucky if we can hire 5 10+ years of work ex engineers into Group A.
- A lot of juniors, learn the skills and leave the firm. They either go for MBA/ME abroad or join competing software org. We mitigate this risk by separating engineers by skillset and paying the Group A ones, market leading rates.
- Paying higher renumeration to engineers in group A, ensures that a lot of similarly skilled Indians are happy to head back and work in India. A lot of our top management now is made up of expats. We had to look outside due to the senior dev skill shortage, I mentioned above.

[vishnurp99]

Hi Folks,
With all of the talk about salaries in this thread, I wanted to bring in a reality check.
According to ITR data for 2019, only 40000 odd people in the entire country report salary income above 1 Cr. This will include doctors, CAs, senior execs in old world companies too. So the IT crowd who earn more than 1 Cr will be less than 10,000 folks.
The great thing about tech roles is the first world value that you can deliver from operating in a third world country. When you are working for a product behemoth, you are really compensated against a global bench mark ... but this applies in the initial six to ten years of your career. Beyond that, you really need physical and mind share proximity with senior leaders to deliver value.
So let's make hay while the sun shines but do anticipate the inevitable burst of the bubble.

Note - I initially made a mistake in the data. 2000 odd people reported professional income over 1 Cr but I think the big picture still holds.

[whencut86]

Originally Posted by NPV

About 15 years ago, there was this market thumbrule for IT engineer roles (average IT business application development roles on Java/.Net platforms) - 1.5 to 2L per year of experience. I don't know if those numbers are still valid.

This still holds true to a lot of Service and Product based companies. I have worked in both the Service Industry and the Product Industry in IT and have had pay discussions during during the course of my career and even recently.

There are some companies like HCL, iGate, etc which can pay somewhere between 1.2-1.5L per years of experience.

Infy, TCS, Wipro, etc consider a factor of 1.5-1.75L per years of experience.

CTS and few newer service based companies have a wider range between 1.5-2.0L per years of experience depending on skill set.

Product based companies generally start from 2.0L per years of experience.

The rates are much higher for consulting roles and pre-sales/sales roles in IT service industry.

The only issue I see from the Service Industry giants is the variable/bonus component and Superannuation component from Lead/Manager levels is as high as 30-40 percent and this takes a huge chunk off your monthly take home. Most companies at best offer 70-80 percent of the variable pay even when they are doing really well though there are some exceptions to this where you get 100-200 percent of your VP as well.

With nominal hikes year on year, your pay ends up in the 1.2-1.5L per year level after a few years, even if you started at levels of 1.75-2.0L per years of experience.

With all these, it is only natural that the ones with the right skillset or niche skills, multiple tech skills and continuous learning are able to crack tough interviews and end up in big product firms or startups with these 50-100 percent pay hikes. There are people who are 10+ years of experience earning 10-15L per annum in IT service industry and they end up getting 20-25L packages in one jump prompting these headlines of 100 percent hikes and the likes.

I feel it is only a natural course correction in the long run and with more skills and continuous learning, we can sustain the long run with the need for Techno-Functional managers/leads increasing and need for People Managers being restricted to bare minimum.

[v1p3r]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the 'IT industry'. Bodyshoppers like Infy, Wipro, TCS and their 4 lakh starting salaries, with bloated middle management, are as far removed from product company unicorns as a Model T is from a Pagani. Both have four wheels and an ICE, but that's about it.

I regularly hire people who get paid in multiples of 6-7 lakhs per year of experience. These are non-Tier 1 candidates, with average communication skills, and under 5 years of experience. If they were not, they would already be in the US at x100k salaries. If you run a product company, handle heavy data loads, and dabble in learning and intelligence, this is par for the course.

If you are in a bodyshopper, then there's really nothing to say. These leeches looted students for two decades - starting salaries haven't changed in 20 years and have actually decreased, armtwisted governments into extending their tax holidays and tax-free status, and never scaled themselves up on the value chain. Every coder there aspired to middle management - some sort of xL (TL, PL) leader, and then manager. None of these roles require upskilling, new knowledge sets, or any real technical skills. Now they're all left clutching their bellies, wondering why they don't get paid the 1 cr that an Amazon PM with 8 years of experience gets paid.

Caught in between, of course, are smaller companies that are deep-tech but not yet spinning enough cash to retain 'rockstar' or 'ninja' talent. Like me. and both apply here.

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

I have around 15 years experience and most folks in this range in product dev companies are earning well above 8 figures now. Org is offering huge hikes and RSUs just to retain folks as there is a huge lack of resources in the area I work. I've personally approved 60L+ packages for people with 5-6 years of solid experience.

Salaries in Bangalore are now more lucrative on a PPP level than anywhere else in the world. Absolutely crazy!

This is in line with what I'm seeing. No surprise at all.

Originally Posted by vredesbyrd

Yes, god has favourites and I'm not one of them.

You drive two German cars in a country where god hasn't even given some people food or shelter. Consider yourself firmly in the favourite camp.

Originally Posted by YD14

Can anybody give me some tips what would be the best way to make the most out of this situation in the industry if it persisted for a few more years?

DM me. If you or your friends are that good, I'll hire you.

Originally Posted by kavensri

Though this is slightly off-topic as this thread is about salary in IT industry, I still thought of posting this message here.
Whether it is 10 LPA or 60 LPA for a 10+ years of experienced IT person, I always wonder why my sister with 25+ years of experience is paid less than 10 LPA. She has been managing a whole branch of a private home loan company in a tier-2 city. Her working hours are worse than mine (I am having 23+ years of experience working for a product MNC) and her responsibilities are also much more (and worse) than mine. Are we going to see any revolution in the salaries of non-IT sector in India?

We are not going to see any such revolution. These salaries exist because the end user of the built product is in the US/EU. It would cost multiples more to build it there, so it's built here at a discount. Even given the higher salaries of the locals who build it, the profit margins are massive enough to sustain much higher-than-normal local salaries. Your home loan is sold to locals, and there is no tech component. In a country with rampant unemployment, a job that doesn't have a high degree of differentiated technical skill is easily replaceable and thus not prone to salary increases.

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

Mr. Moorthy is a great man and all the co founders of Infosys have done this country proud. From Aadhar to Indian IT laws all were introduced by these gentlemen. The kind of era where they started this business from absolutely nothing is a different story altogether. I am sure though you could do better.

NRN is a hypocritical clown who was 'embarrassed' to sing the Indian national anthem at one time. Yes, he has made money and made his investors and early colleagues rich. That does not make him a great man, any more than Sachin Bansal or Bhavish Agarwal - who actually have built competitive world-class products. He has made a significant portion of his money off tax-free land and laws bent for him, and his sidekick has switched political parties to make sure every citizen's data is on the world's least secure database and being accessed by the PLAA willy-nilly. He also turned a blind eye to his blue-eyed boy's continued sexual crimes, because the money was flowing him. Of course, your view is blinded by the fact that his 'largesse' is paying for your PG degree, so I would not expect a realistic opinion. No offence meant. My knowledge from this comes from knowing some of these people personally.

Also, there is no need for a passive-aggressive statement like 'you could do better'. Maybe the person you're quoting has already started and cashed out of a multi-million dollar startup. Who knows? Be kind.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

Market forces are slowly driving the maturity of the Indian IT industry. It is simple economics that demand and supply drive prices. Today we are in a position where about 20 to 30% of the population of Indian IT industry, who have niche and globally in-demand skills are experiencing high demand and low supply. On the other end of the spectrum, there is over-supply of talent in the low skill areas. When demand far exceeds supply, basic economics dictates that prices will increase and this is exactly what is happening in the top 20 to 30% of the skill pyramid.

Thank you for this sensible statement.

All,
As someone representing the employer this is exactly what we see. The top 30% of the IT labour pool in India is demanding {and getting} extraordinary salaries out of whack with what can be afforded and it is now getting to be cheaper to hire a WFH resource in Romania or Ukraine who'll do the job and not be an attrition headache either.

In this Covid period we saw employees finding it way too easy to switch jobs and then switch again all within months. IT employees in India by and large are paid above other sectors in India because their companies earn in USD and pay in INR and have that purchasing power parity differential cushion to pay a little extra with. From the manufacturing industry's point of view the grumbling of IT employees seems strange given that they are paid above average and work in a growing and vibrant industry - yet they make the most noise of not being the favoured few!

From an employer's point of view the human resources IT landscape in India is a messy with too much attrition which then acts as a deterrent to invest in top quality technical training for that employee. And to some extent the employee base has contributed to this unhealthy state of affairs. Only silver lining is that for lower skilled 70% there is no serious alternative out there other than India. Philippines could have been an option but their employee attitudes are worse. Employers have contributed to the mayhem by focusing on poaching and under investing in their own resources. The Courts have contributed to this by ruling that an employer cannot hold an employee simply because the employer invested in his education/training!!! Unusual ruling to put out in a country desperately short on skills.

[Romins]

Something light on this serious topic.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by CDART

An engineer in Group A average around 40lpa at 4 years of work ex.

You are probably thinking you are paying so well, so you are safe. No sir....

Now freshers from Bangalore engineering colleges (not IIT/NIT) are being offered 40L to work in Bangalore.

At first I thought it is US salary. Then I was told these companies have branches in Bangalore and this is where they will work.

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Now freshers from Bangalore engineering colleges (not IIT/NIT) are being offered 40L to work in Bangalore.

Looks like AI, ML, Data Science are being separated from Computer Science stream in many engineering colleges.

A relative of mine was shocked to know that all the Computer Science seats are "booked" even before the PU results are out.

Barring a few colleges, like those mentioned in the article, other colleges have joined the AI/ML bandwagon and kids who have zero aptitude for math want to be data scientists

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Now freshers from Bangalore engineering colleges (not IIT/NIT) are being offered 40L to work in Bangalore.

US salaries for similar roles are now USD 130k to 180k. Getting someone to do that job for ~55k USD is pretty compelling.

Moreover, these offers are very few, just like USD 180k jobs. "Salary" itself wont be more then 20 lakh, rest would be "overselling" + stocks.

[VaibhavShatna95]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

"NRN is a hypocritical clown who was 'embarrassed' to sing the Indian national anthem at one time. Yes, he has made money and made his investors and early colleagues rich. That does not make him a great man, any more than Sachin Bansal or Bhavish Agarwal - who actually have built competitive world-class products. He has made a significant portion of his money off tax-free land and laws bent for him, and his sidekick has switched political parties to make sure every citizen's data is on the world's least secure database and being accessed by the PLAA willy-nilly. He also turned a blind eye to his blue-eyed boy's continued sexual crimes, because the money was flowing him. Of course, your view is blinded by the fact that his 'largesse' is paying for your PG degree, so I would not expect a realistic opinion. No offence meant. My knowledge from this comes from knowing some of these people personally. "

Also, there is no need for a passive-aggressive statement like 'you could do better'. Maybe the person you're quoting has already started and cashed out of a multi-million dollar startup. Who knows? Be kind.

The reason I said you could do better is that the company he started employees 2,60,000+ worldwide. Average salary of an employee in this MNC is already 7 lakh+ which is no joke in the country we are living (This could also be less than your starting salary if you are good at programming or some kind of speacialist). The reason we have a startup culture altogether is because IT services companies put us on the map and children were inclined to take CS/IT as their majors and it also became a popular course across colleges. You can put down any company as being evil or being a sellout be it Flipkart or Amazon but whereas people working for them might not even be able to afford housing, I would say Infosys did much better here in its early days where even support staff like guards got a decent pay and stocks through which they could educate their children. The lakhs of passive jobs these tech giants have created is the difference.

Also your comments about all IT companies being body shops is again baffling, where most of the new contracts being signed have become managed services, which are outsourced end to end by the client and they do not even want to know how many people we put into work for a definded project.

Don't worry about me, this is my second post grad where the first one was funded by me. It is the opportunity to learn which matters. Whereas people had written they don't invest in talent, I was just giving a counter view. Be the best among many and you will definitely be noticed, no matter where you are.

Even if you made several multi million dollar startups I hardly think you would benefit the society as a whole as much as they have done by creating everlasting bell weather of $100B+ purely driven by Indian intellect.

As far as politics goes, I am least interested. These guys came at the time of license raj, where India itself didn't want to be included in globalisation. Deeds do more than words for me. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

company he started employees 2,60,000+ worldwide.... The reason we have a startup culture altogether is because IT services companies put us on the map and children were inclined to take CS/IT as their majors and it also became a popular course across colleges.

+1. In 80s/90s, these companies created the culture that is the foundation for growth today. (Growth : Moving up the tech pyramid, from services to product and eventually tech)

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

These guys came at the time of license raj, where India itself didn't want to be included in globalisation.

Another +1, I had to wait 6 months just to get an import cleared (hardware components for development). 80s/90s were a tough place to do Software business. Every version that was shipped out of India required clearances from babus.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

I have around 15 years experience and most folks in this range in product dev companies are earning well above 8 figures now.

That is very heartening to know the ratio of US:India salaries are improving . At a generic level, what would be the job description of these positions?

[reignofchaos]

Originally Posted by msdivy

That is very heartening to know the ratio of US:India salaries are improving . At a generic level, what would be the job description of these positions?

That varies from company to company. However the titles are typically senior staff or principal engineer.

[CDART]

Originally Posted by Samurai

You are probably thinking you are paying so well, so you are safe. No sir....

Now freshers from Bangalore engineering colleges (not IIT/NIT) are being offered 40L to work in Bangalore.

At first I thought it is US salary. Then I was told these companies have branches in Bangalore and this is where they will work.

Ha ha yeah!! We are not in Bangalore, so thats one succour. We are in the high 20's for our campus placements and will bump it to 30+ this year. Also will be interesting to see what happens in the year end, as we will be forced to rebalance to control attrition.