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Old 23rd January 2023, 13:16   #736
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post
Surprised at all the noise around layoffs. I mean recession and layoffs are a part and parcel of IT industry isn’t it? 2000 we saw it followed by 2008/09 which was massive.
Public memory is short, having started my career during the subprime crisis i can remember the days i used to go to interviews with file in hand and 100s of applicants.

I was in the US during that time and an acquaintance of mine who was a VP in Morgan Stanley was laid off and he had to foreclose on his Home, turn in his E Class back to the dealership at loss and send his kids and wife back to India. When his savings started depleting he started working in a gas station. He did odd jobs for around a year till he got a similar executive position at a much lower grade than what he was doing. Now he is a cofounder of a medium size enterprise software company and doing well.

So private employment is always subject to the ups and downs of the economic cycle.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 13:26   #737
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Not really. Senior employees should know even better, as they have watched the industry long enough to know that party can end any time. Such people would have a big enough corpus to support themselves for a while, unless their financial planning was really poor.
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Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
It may come as a shock to the junior employees but older folks should be aware of this reality and be prepared.
For the seniors more than the financial stress, it would be the abrupt change in identity/routine that would be more distressing. For most of us our identitities are tied to our employees. I am not saying this is good or bad, but this is a fact of life. One fine morning if you are locked out of office/network that would be a shock, and there would be venting out on social media.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 13:28   #738
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by rakesh_r View Post
Is Amazon again going ahead with fresh round of layoffs?
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/18/amaz...00-people.html
No. This is the same news that came out earlier. USA, Costa Rica and Canada employees received separation emails on 18th PST. This article was published on 18th and talks to the same.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Not really. Senior employees should know even better, as they have watched the industry long enough to know that party can end any time. Such people would have a big enough corpus to support themselves for a while, unless their financial planning was really poor. They will get picked up soon enough thanks to ex-Google or ex-Amazon in their Linkedin profile.
Why so bitter saar?
Employer or employee, both are humans and at this point, the least we can do is be empathetic. Trust me, jobs don't magically land at our mailboxes if we spend time at MAANG or whatever. I've spent 5 years at one, so trust what comes from the horse's mouth. Also, before you point out, my job is important so I've not been laid off. And I still make the statement that it's not easy to find an equivalent job outside.

Last edited by benbsb29 : 24th January 2023 at 05:23. Reason: Corrected typo : layed -> laid
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Old 23rd January 2023, 14:07   #739
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by kaushikduttajsr View Post
...
Why so bitter saar?


...Employer or employee, both are humans and at this point, the least we can do is be empathetic...
Truth tastes awful.

Empathy works like a bank, ones gets out what one puts in.

One can't swing between 'screw you, got mine!' on the way up and 'screw you, mine got taken away, why won't you cry for me?' on the way down. One can, of course, but sympathy is scarce.

Plenty of my own colleagues, past and present, when affected by a layoff had a bunch of people falling over themselves to help out. These were people the laid-off colleagues had helped in some way, or just treated nicely in the past, when the chips were down.

Plenty also got 'suits you right' as a response, because that's what they did when they had an opportunity to help and chose to look away instead.

You have to make deposits in the empathy bank before you can make withdrawals. Some people gather enough goodwill over a lifetime to make overdrafts.

Bank friends for a rainy day. It might be lonely at the top, it gets worse rolling downhill. Tired cliché, until it becomes real.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 23rd January 2023 at 14:10.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 14:11   #740
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

Honestly, as someone who was made redundant last year, no regrets or hard feelings. A lot of people in tech, specially the FAANG folks, or whatever the term is now, got paid a king's ransom for delivering products and that's that. No point in making the company your personal identity or such. It's important to remember that you're always a tiny cog in a very, *very* big machine. Unless it's your company, expect to be replaced. It's simply a matter of time and/or convenience.

The good thing about tech is the fire hose of a salary. As long as you were prudent with money in the past, you can safely take a year, or five, off and just chill.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 14:12   #741
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Not really. Senior employees should know even better, as they have watched the industry long enough to know that party can end any time. Such people would have a big enough corpus to support themselves for a while, unless their financial planning was really poor. They will get picked up soon enough thanks to ex-Google or ex-Amazon in their Linkedin profile.
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Originally Posted by rakesh_r View Post
Is Amazon again going ahead with fresh round of layoffs?
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/18/amaz...00-people.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Truth tastes awful.

Empathy works like a bank, ones gets out what one puts in
Sure Chetan. Then, I'm filling my own empathy bank here.

It is very easy to do the other when I'm on the other side but surely empathy costs nothing. I guess, I'm naive and age has taught me nothing on choosing to not be sensitive

Not to stir up a debate, but I'm not sure what truth you're speaking of. Folks with 5-10 yrs of dedicated career are being layed off without any consequence to those whose decisions led to this situation. The only mistake was they choose to trust leadership and invest their time on a non-profitable business unit and not to jump ships for a 2000% hike.

Last edited by kaushikduttajsr : 23rd January 2023 at 14:15.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 14:25   #742
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by kaushikduttajsr View Post
... empathy costs nothing...
Empathy costs nothing measurable. There's a reason why people who'll turn the other cheek when slapped are as rare as the guy who said that.


Quote:
... Folks with 5-10 yrs of dedicated career are being layed off without any consequence to those whose decisions led to this situation.
Consequences always land on those who don't have someone else to pin them on.

Quote:
...The only mistake was they choose to trust leadership and invest their time on a non-profitable business unit and not to jump ships for a 2000% hike.
Another lesson learnt the hard way. Self-preservation is paramount. You're no good to someone else if you're helpless yourself.

It's like the people using the 'I'm going to attend an emergency' excuse for reckless driving. I always end up reminding them they should be even more careful in that case, not less, because someone's counting on them to reach & help, not become a liability themselves.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 14:32   #743
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Empathy costs nothing measurable. There's a reason why people who'll turn the other cheek when slapped are as rare as the guy who said that.




Consequences always land on those who don't have someone else to pin them on.



Another lesson learnt the hard way. Self-preservation is paramount. You're no good to someone else if you're helpless yourself.

It's like the people using the 'I'm going to attend an emergency' excuse for reckless driving. I always end up reminding them they should be even more careful in that case, not less, because someone's counting on them to reach & help, not become a liability themselves.
Chetan, have you ever been laid off?

If yes, you know the impact on mental health. If not, you should really talk to someone and understand what they are going through.

I'll help everyone who has been impacted as I know them personally and none of that you've said holds true for them.

If I look at all my colleagues, I'd choose not to work exactly with someone with this line of thought, people who say you deserve what you get. I saw another post as well that says, tech workers are paid a lot. So it is OK for them to be laid off? They shouldn't be mentally impacted. I find this line of thought selfish and shameful. As a country, we need to learn empathy and I'll do my bit.

Please understand, tech workers are humans. They make more than the average Joe because they have more skills than the average Joe. That payslip doesn't ease the pain of being laid off.

Last edited by Axe77 : 30th January 2023 at 20:43. Reason: typo corrected
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Old 23rd January 2023, 15:01   #744
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by kaushikduttajsr View Post
They make more than the average Joe because they have more skills than the average Joe..
This is too general a statement. Maybe their ‘skills’ are a function of what is/ was ‘in demand’ vs what’s not.
In the very near future, more than Tech, I’d say we will need and value the skills of those who grow our food and those who are able to simply ‘fix’ our broken stuff.
So ‘skills’ are a completely relative thing as is their marketability and the value ascribed to those said ‘skills’.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 15:24   #745
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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This is too general a statement. Maybe their ‘skills’ are a function of what is/ was ‘in demand’ vs what’s not.
In the very near future, more than Tech, I’d say we will need and value the skills of those who grow our food and those who are able to simply ‘fix’ our broken stuff.
So ‘skills’ are a completely relative thing as is their marketability and the value ascribed to those said ‘skills’.
I mentioned that the paycheck holds no value when it comes to mental health after a layoff. Also, folks need 15+ of experience in the product tech industry to be able to disprove an employee's current market value. Since, I do not know your qualifications, I'll leave that for you to decide.

Signing off from this thread to avoid inflicting further pain to impacted folks. I'll reiterate, please have empathy. If you're not in the tech industry, you do not know what folks are going through. Please talk to someone who has been impacted. If you do not wish to show empathy, atleast do not rub salt over their wounds by bringing up comp into this discussion. Please!

PS: Not all laid off folks work in tech. This layoff has impacted non-tech folks who are paid the same or lesser salaries as non-tech / non-product companies.

Last edited by kaushikduttajsr : 23rd January 2023 at 15:26.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 16:43   #746
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by kaushikduttajsr View Post
I mentioned that the paycheck holds no value when it comes to mental health after a layoff.
If you do not wish to show empathy, atleast do not rub salt over their wounds by bringing up comp into this discussion. Please!

PS: Not all laid off folks work in tech. This layoff has impacted non-tech folks who are paid the same or lesser salaries as non-tech / non-product companies.
I don’t know what you seem so angry about.
All I said was not to make general statements like you did.

Anyway, this is not about empathy or the lack of it.
Fact is any and all skills are marketable, only as long as there is a market for them, but not otherwise.

Companies and Employees enter into a Contract with each other on a pay for work basis. You exchange your time and skills for payment in cash or esops or perks or a combo of all of these. Keeping all emotions and sentiment and platitudes aside, it is a simple business transaction. And it is subject to market risks. It lasts until it lasts. Just like mutual funds and all are subject to market risks too. Typically the higher the reward the higher the risk as well.

The issue is that the market and compensation numbers for tech talent has been spiralling out of control these last couple of years. It has become totally unrealistic and everyone was busy spinning castles in the air. Now with the sudden correction of ‘valuations’ and the fall of all these new age companies, many of which have highly questionable practices, unclear vision and no line of sight into profitability, the whole industry is taking a body blow from a reputation perspective. This is bad enough in itself and when you overlay this with the sudden lay offs and unemployment, the problem as well as the pain becomes compounded.

But this was bound to happen. If one were to calmly and objectively sit and view the happenings and environment of the last 2-3 years, one will realise the sheer inevitability of what is happening right now. And the sheer volume of scams in the industry is really worrying. Absolutely zero integrity.

The sad thing is irrespective of all this, there is no social security net for affected people to fall back on. The taxes paid give nothing back to the people who paid them.

And even more worryingly, there is absolutely no let up on real inflation numbers and the prices of real estate despite there being so much unsold inventory with more and more coming up every day!
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Old 23rd January 2023, 17:05   #747
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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Originally Posted by kaushikduttajsr View Post
Chetan, have you ever been layed off?
Let's just say I didn't learn my life lessons from self-help books and social media memes.

Quote:
...If yes, you know the impact on mental health. If not, you should really talk to someone and understand what they are going through.
Been through both, it's quite the experience. It's the people who care, people who step up to help, not corporations, so one should invest their time and priorities accordingly.

For a corporation, every employee (including the C-suite) is a number on a spreadsheet; profitable when in black ink, a liability when in red. Everything else is stories we are told or tell ourselves.

Quote:
...you deserve what you get.
You deserve what you give. If you're fortunate to have great people around you, and you invest in your relationships with them, you sometimes get more than you gave.

Tell you a little story. When I was looking for a new role a year or so ago, I bumped by chance into someone I'd worked briefly with nearly a decade ago. The gentleman was a recent hire then, and was inheriting a process and team I'd spent years building. We'd spent a few months working closely on the transition, it was like giving away my first-born. I did my job, to the best of my ability, and he carried it forward. That process and team have thrived, the people involved have since moved to bigger & better things in life.

Back to the present, he gave me a reference to an open role he was aware of, and I found out later he also put in a word vouching for my work ethic. He didn't have to do either (esp. the latter), but he chose to. I interviewed and got the role, and though he refuses to take credit, he very likely was the difference between me having a good role and being unemployed at that moment. I met him recently at our favorite performance theatre, and he just smiled when I brought it up over coffee.

People remember how you made them feel, and they often pay it back when you least expect it.

Quote:
...They make more than the average Joe because they have more skills than the average Joe...
Skills are a critical ingredient to success, but not the only one. There are plenty of 'Average Joes' who make nothing close to what they 'deserve', for a variety of reasons that can't simply be solved with 'they should just get a better paying job'.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 23rd January 2023 at 17:07.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 17:52   #748
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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People remember how you made them feel, and they often pay it back when you least expect it.
Works in all ways. A family member used to work under a pretty bad boss for a year before they were able to leave that team. That person had been with the org for well-over a decade, was one of those 'my company/job is my life' kind of people, anything for the company and the results. Used to sacrifice their personal lives and the personal lives of the people under them to "get the job done".

Got kicked out unceremoniously with a bunch of senior folks a couple of months ago, (guess the company didn't feel the same way about them). Teams of the other senior folk who were better people managers went out of their way to help them find a new role. Some of them who used to work for them but were now in equivalent senior positions in other companies. Most found new jobs in a month or two, except this one person. Apparently no one wanted to refer this person because of their past experiences with them.

People remember, companies seldom do. Always important to treat people both above and below you in the corporate chain of command fairly, if not well. At least in IT, some of them might realistically someday be higher up in the ladder at a different company and in a position to help.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 20:24   #749
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

My understanding is that most of the layoffs from big companies are because they hired too many people between 2021 and 2022. And that was because there were too many resignations and that was because people were getting 100% to 300% hike somewhere else, so companies had to hire many more people to soften the attrition. Except for Facebook (which invested too much in Meta) and Amazon (who were making losses in Alexa and in other 2-3 products) all other companies had too many people as their problem. They hired too many people in anticipation of attrition, but the recession (or the fear of recession) resulted in job market getting dry and resignations stopped. Now they have too many people than they actually require.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 20:31   #750
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Re: Jobs, Attrition and IT companies

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some of them might realistically someday be higher up in the ladder at a different company and in a position to help.
There us an old piece of wisdom which I heard very early on in my career.

Don’t tread on and trample over those whom you pass on your way up the ladder, in your hurry to get there. Because there may come a day when you are coming down that very ladder and will have to pass those same people on the way back down.

Or words to that effect.
The implication however, is clear.
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