[greenhorn]

From what i know, IT industry is already exempt from labour laws and has always been.
https://m.thewire.in/article/labour/...mpanies-exempt
So to me all of this seems like an academic exercise

[Samurai]

Rory Sutherland is an advertising executive, copywriter, speaker, author and currently the vice chairman of the Ogilvy & Mather group of companies, where he joined as trainee in 1988.

He explains how the concept of office has been destroyed by administrators who don't really bring any value. I have witnessed the beginning of this briefly in the 90s before I left the corporate world. The power was shifting from revenue generating staff to non-revenue generating staff. I found it confounding then, however I do understand it now. It is basically about keeping the power out of the hands of those generating revenue, to ensure they don't become too powerful.

https://youtu.be/Mu54ERQZZIw

[HIGHWAY_PATROL]

Originally Posted by Samurai

It is basically about keeping the power out of the hands of those generating revenue, to ensure they don't become too powerful.

https://Youtu.be/Mu54ERQZZIw

Well said. Your post reminds me of a colleague of mine who includes the below quote from Albert Einstein in his email signature:
'Bureaucracy is the death of sound work'.

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by condor

....
It's a rare hospital that does not focus on the revenue part. Wife works with one such hospital, and a recent internal comment to some senior folks there was that the parent organization does not need the hospital to bring in revenue to support the parent. Wife is happy to be with that hospital, and has been there for almost 6 years now.

Woah, is this in Bengaluru? If possible, please share the name of the hospital.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by HIGHWAY_PATROL

'Bureaucracy is the death of sound work'.

Reminds me of something that happened to me in 1996.

Originally Posted by Samurai

The story didn't end there. The data center manager wanted the report in a week. But, my company by then had become ISO9000 certified. Which means I had run through a set of reviews and sign offs and what not. I took 2 days for the actual audit, and 2 days to write the report. However, the ISO9000 process of this tiny project stretched the process to 1 month, to get all the sign offs. By the end of it, the report got edited, censored and watered down and had become completely benign.

None of folks who reviewed/edited/diluted my report had the competency to do that electronic security audit. But they had the last say on what went on the report. I expressed this to my manager, and he just smiled and shrugged. He was a competent guy in his 50s, but he understood bureaucracy always wins in large companies like TCS.

[V.Narayan]

Infosys eliminates appointment letters to cut hiring fraud.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/lifestyle/...91b87df2&ei=33

Infosys has made it clear on its career website, stating, “Important notice: Infosys offer letters and associated documents are available only on our career site. Candidates can access this using their login credentials. We no longer send emails with attached offer letters..."

Infosys has introduced a significant change in its hiring process by eliminating the practice of sending job offer letters via email. Candidates, including both fresh graduates and lateral hires, are now required to log into Infosys' internal system to access their job application details.

This is aimed at reducing hiring fraud rampant in India’s IT industry where candidates shop around for appointment letters and then use these to negotiate better compensation & terms and then ghost all but one of those potential employers.

Despite being amongst the highest salary earners in India and being in a market where jobs are at times going abegging the attrition rates in India’s IT industry is denting its attractiveness to prospective customers.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is aimed at reducing hiring fraud rampant in India’s IT industry where candidates shop around for appointment letters and then use these to negotiate better compensation & terms and then ghost all but one of those potential employers.

I earned this lesson 20 years ago in my first startup when I was confronted with freshers waving offers letters at me and challenge me to exceed it. I took back offers to anyone who waved other offer letters at me, I mean they already have a job. I also never gave an offer letter, other than saying it verbally. Appointment letter is given on the day of reporting.

Important notice: Infosys offer letters and associated documents are available only on our career site. Candidates can access this using their login credentials.

Not sure how this will stop candidates from taking a screenshot and showing it to other employers.

[vijaykr]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Not sure how this will stop candidates from taking a screenshot and showing it to other employers.

Exactly. In fact when I've asked my recruitment team to get the competing or counter offers of candidates who are wanting us to match/better them, more often than not, it is only a screen print or on WhatsApp.

Many a time I wonder how easy it could be for the candidate to put this together by hand But in the mad race for talent in Bangalore, there seemingly is not much to be done.

[GeneralJazz]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is aimed at reducing hiring fraud rampant in India’s IT industry where candidates shop around for appointment letters and then use these to negotiate better compensation & terms and then ghost all but one of those potential employers.

I think the hiring fraud they are referring to is the fake offer letter scams going around. This had become a menace, with unscrupulous elements getting email ids from job portals and sending fake offer letters, asking for a "deposit" or "booking amount". Particularly common for Infy and L&T. Phone calls too. Heck, a couple of weeks ago, I got a call from one "Inpojeej Comppeny" offering me a job, all for a "refundable deposit" of Rs. 15000.

Heres one such "offer letter" I received a few years ago!

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I earned this lesson 20 years ago in my first startup when I was confronted with freshers waving offers letters at me and challenge me to exceed it. I took back offers to anyone who waved other offer letters at me, I mean they already have a job. I also never gave an offer letter, other than saying it verbally. Appointment letter is given on the day of reporting.

Not sure how this will stop candidates from taking a screenshot and showing it to other employers.

How is this fraud. That would make everything fraud. And this means anybody who has ever issued any kind of tender is a fraudster

Originally Posted by Samurai

Rory Sutherland is an advertising executive, copywriter, speaker, author and currently the vice chairman of the Ogilvy & Mather group of companies, where he joined as trainee in 1988.

He explains how the concept of office has been destroyed by administrators who don't really bring any value. I have witnessed the beginning of this briefly in the 90s before I left the corporate world. The power was shifting from revenue generating staff to non-revenue generating staff. I found it confounding then, however I do understand it now. It is basically about keeping the power out of the hands of those generating revenue, to ensure they don't become too powerful.

https://Youtu.be/Mu54ERQZZIw

Love his videos. Corporate "oncology" is a nice term.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

How is this fraud. That would make everything fraud. And this means anybody who has ever issued any kind of tender is a fraudster

I am confused. Can you point out where I said anything about fraud?

[am1m]

Originally Posted by vijaykr

In fact when I've asked my recruitment team to get the competing or counter offers of candidates who are wanting us to match/better them,...

Since companies are willing to match offers, can't really blame candidates for trying to get the best offer possible. And I really don't see anything wrong with that. Companies are interviewing multiple candidates, candidates are shortlisting multiple companies. Both go with the best fit.

Originally Posted by vijaykr

Many a time I wonder how easy it could be for the candidate to put this together by hand ...

I've got one better, I once worked for a company where the HR head tried to ask me to doctor an offer letter from another company! (Because, back then, only our communications team had the tool required to edit PDF files.) I did some digging and found that he had been employed by a recruitment firm prior to joining our company. And his wife was still in that firm! So it was part of some scam to get more money to that recruiting firm. I refused, citing some technical reason (I had no hope anything would come out of complaining about the HR head of the org, except me getting fired.)

We can complain about candidates, and much of it is justified. But the fundamental fact is that recruitment is broken at most big IT companies. First problem is outsourcing recruitment/HR to recruiting agencies (most of which are shady or unqualified to do the job). The candidates just follow the 'best practices' that the firms and the job market does.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I am confused. Can you point out where I said anything about fraud?

You replied to @V.Narayan's post quoting the specific portion where he was expanding on the fraud. Easy for others to infer that you were too.

I also never gave an offer letter, other than saying it verbally.

I would never agree on this (neither as a hiring manager nor as an interviewee). In my experience, I have observed verbal offers only in cases where the interviewers weren't invested in the individual or didn't trust the interviewee. But I guess it works for some.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

You replied to @V.Narayan's post quoting the specific portion where he was expanding on the fraud. Easy for others to infer that you were too.

Ah, ok. I don't really worry about that part since I am against candidates trying to auction themselves. Veracity of the offer letter is not really important to me.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

I would never agree on this (neither as a hiring manager nor as an interviewee). In my experience, I have observed verbal offers only in cases where the interviewers weren't invested in the individual or didn't trust the interviewee. But I guess it works for some.

I agree verbal offers don't work when you are a big company, who can really believe the words of some HR guy. But it does work in small companies where the verbal offer is made by the CEO himself. If I didn't honour an offer after it was made, I can be named and shamed on Linkedin for sure. I can't hide behind of the anonymity of an HR person.

BTW, we do send an official email confirming the job, but we don't mention the amount offered.

Originally Posted by am1m

Since companies are willing to match offers, can't really blame candidates for trying to get the best offer possible. And I really don't see anything wrong with that. Companies are interviewing multiple candidates, candidates are shortlisting multiple companies. Both go with the best fit.

Oh, I am not against candidates trying to get multiple offers. But I am against they trying to act like a painting or antique that is being auctioned, by showing different offer letters to potential employers. If they show me an offer letter which is a better than my offer, I always say "Cool, you should take that offer, all the best". I won't get into a bidding war.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Oh, I am not against candidates trying to get multiple offers. But I am against they trying to act like a painting or antique that is being auctioned, by showing different offer letters to potential employers. If they show me an offer letter which is a better than my offer, I always say "Cool, you should take that offer, all the best". I won't get into a bidding war.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is aimed at reducing hiring fraud rampant in India’s IT industry where candidates shop around for appointment letters and then use these to negotiate better compensation & terms and then ghost all but one of those potential employers.

Not sure about intent that Infosys had, but what you say appears to be a perfect competitive bidding system under capitalism, otherwise what bargaining chips does the seller (potential employee) hold here to ask for highest possible CTC burden that the buyer (employer) can really afford?

In any case the buyer side is also not transparent enough to display the payslips of all the existing employees in the same grade in their organization.