[PhrozenFire]

Originally Posted by amtak

Wow! which stream of MBA's? As in marketing/Finance or HR?

For fresher MBAs a company hiring from one college normally doesnt differentiate wrt the stream (marketing/fin/HR). The salary from a particular company depends on years of work experience

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

And from which collage(s) ?

Originally Posted by amtak

Certainly the A rated ones. But I am sure that 4.5 to 7.5 is now the norm for freshers.

As far as I know the large IT companies pay differential salaries only to IIM-A,B,C and ISB (& maybe XLRI, not sure). All other schools are offered the same salaries (yes even IIM L,K,I) & also they normally dont hire below B+ grade schools (although B-school ratings are very very subjective and the source of endless controversy)

[WhiteKnight]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

I guess what you are suggesting is that if indian companies can not operate in european or american model, they should close.

You got it wrong. There is no American model, European model or Indian model. The marketplace is realy open. Organizations who know how to survive would do so.
I am not saying others should close. They will get closed on their own in due course.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

ever wonder why business from those countries flows to India and other asian countries in the first place?

Good point. So isn't then the Indian firms start with a cost advantage to compete with the rest of the globe? Then why are you saying "Indian companies operating with low margins against the rest of the world minting money"?

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

and that recruiting new HR will ensure they will hire recruits who will actually stay with the company.

Human resource or Human Capital Management is an area where lot of reserch has already been done. HRM team in an organization is there to

1) Ensure right candidates are recruited, within the right budget. You don't get a tractor for fielding in F1 race and same applies the other way too.
Either you source a Ferrari engine and build an F1 car, or quite the race, or become another Lamborghini

2) Ensure those on board are tuned to deliver max Power and Torque. Also, they are serviced to get long engine life rather than getting burned out after a lap.

3) Ensuring those who go out do so with a happy face rather than de-meaning the organization in the long run. Organizations line McKinsey, and HLL has a very strong alumni network.

[spadival]

Originally Posted by bblost

and do what?

keep a knife on a coders neck and say sing.

Ahhh.. Thats the job of the "IT manager" .. I dont think the local bhai's would be interested in that.

They will be more interested in getting people recruited for a % of the candidates salary!!

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by spadival

Ahhh.. Thats the job of the "IT manager" .. I dont think the local bhai's would be interested in that.

To put it in a very relevant tone, as my manager in Infy once did :

You people are just code-coolies, and easily replaceable as well.

This from another manager of our team to the guy who was a brilliant resource while he was trying to reason out with the manager.

You think you will being the company to its knees if you leave? Go ahead.

Needless to say, the guy quit IMMEDIATELY.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

To put it in a very relevant tone, as my manager in Infy once did :

This from another manager of our team to the guy who was a brilliant resource while he was trying to reason out with the manager.

Needless to say, the guy quit IMMEDIATELY.

But... code coolies are infact easily replaceable.

And, did the company come down on its knees when the brilliant resource left?

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by amitoj

But... code coolies are infact easily replaceable.

And, did the company come down on its knees when the brilliant resource left?

What's your point?

Everyone is easily replaceable. Do you think an MNC will come down on its knees if one person left? Its about ethics man. But i think you wont get it. And i am talking for both the manager and the employee.

[spadival]

Originally Posted by amitoj

But... code coolies are infact easily replaceable.

And, did the company come down on its knees when the brilliant resource left?

ahem.. I think a manager is far more easily replaceable than a programmer. IMHO, the skillset required of a typical IT manager is - Profiency in MS Office, Profiency in cracking the whip at lesser mortals and profiency in licking client's boots

PS: I would fit the profile perfectly, but I prefer to be a code coolie!!

[bblost]

a = b + c;
Seems very simple right.

But then when you are writing code its not enough to just put that line in.
What if b or c are actually a string. And you need to write code that overrides the + sign.

What if the values of b and c can be so big that a might get buffer overflow.
What if a has a value that needs to be saved before you overwrite it with a value.
What if all of them have different data types.
What if the value of b and c need to be picked up via a webservice that is running on a cobol box, which a java wrapper on it.

and why is a equal to b plus c.
What is the biz need to do that.

Yes Sir, we are code coolies and quite proud of it.

The only guy who will replace a code coolies is another code coolie.
Try picking up just another guy and get him to write code.

[diabloo]

So the Manager fights back, duh hah

Originally Posted by amitoj

But... code coolies are infact easily replaceable.

And, did the company come down on its knees when the brilliant resource left?

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by amitoj

But... code coolies are infact easily replaceable.
And, did the company come down on its knees when the brilliant resource left?

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Everyone is easily replaceable. Do you think an MNC will come down on its knees if one person left? Its about ethics man.

Has been answered very well by Spitfire.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by bblost

Try picking up just another guy and get him to write code.

I used to code while in school for free (only simple tools like Pascal/ DBASE II and some variants of COBOL on Unix).

Then went on to complete BE Comp in 95.

If I look back, code quality after completing BE before joining collage is equally good/bad.

Probably only thing that matters is experience. As you screw up and stay alive, you learn.

So, IMHO our profession if one of the most over rated.

[bblost]

I took the gold medal for best project in college.

Very proud of it as the entire project was more of a joke on the University and my teachers. They never really figured out what the code was doing and how much of it was running.

Been with the same company for a litle over 5 years and now following my dad' advice have started investigating other options.

some of the code I have written is bad, some very very bad.

But the speed to come to a solution and the ability to anticapte failure points as well as see the bigger picture, I have gained with experiance.

That is where IMO the difference comes between someone who can write programs for fun and one who treats computer as if they are a living entity.

[jp1]

Did somebody said Code coolies? --- See this article.


A myth called the Indian programmer-Review-Sunday Specials-Opinion-The Times of India


Do we need engineers to do majority of applications (read Business applications) which are being developed or maintained today by the IT majors in India? NO. But if you look at the recruitment ads of many companies, they used to prefer only engineers and what the guys do most of the time? Writing some business application (basically capturing data and generating reports). Do this require an engineering background?

During the 90s all companies only take engineers, this was the time the Y2K issue came up, Do you know the reason? It is simply to get through the Visa to send the guy abroad, in other words 'body shopping'. Every country whether in US or Europe or in Singapore, has an immigration policy where only skills which are not locally available can be imported. So to get through this, our companies hire Engineers and put it to the immigration and present the case as though these are 'Engineers' which are in short supply. All these countries have a huge shortage of engineers. So an engineer get an easy visa compared to a non-engineering guy. This is how our Software companies manipulated the immigration rules of other countries.

Now due to this, who is suffering?, All other engineering sectors such as Automobile, Civil enginerring, Aero industry, Space etc because all bright engineers are lured into these madness and maintain tons of codes in a SAP application or Oracle financials etc. This can be done by any graduate or even under graduate who is being trained in programming with an analytical mind.
It seems there is huge crisis developing in our scientific organisations because they are not able to attract bright engineers.

What contribution a Mechanical engineer, or a Civil engineer even an Electronics engineer can do in a Business application? Aren't we grossly wasting precious resources which otherwise could have been used more productively?

With so many bright engineers working in software field, how many world class products we developed? NONE. Of course we contributed to many innovative products, but the ownership and design ideas of these belongs to companies abroad and we did coding for few modules.

This is the status of our software industry, God only knows where we will reach in the future. By then, our other industries also going to loose out because they are denied the service of many bright engineers by the Software Majors. There are few exceptions, but these are few small software companies which are trying to do innovative stuff, but there survival is difficult, because the smart guys who are in these companies will be lured by these majors and naturally the smaller companies cannot survive.

Sorry if offended anybody, I feel this is the scenario today which requires serious consideration.

[Samurai]

Thanks jp1 for posting that. People often think it is the same thing. I started programming first back in 1989 when I accidently ended up joining a C programming training. I fell in love with programming right then. When I graduated next year, I didn't want do anything with electronics, so I focused on system software, which works closer to hardware. Now it is 2008, and I still do programming and still love it. I am very much in product development.

Therefore when people ask me how I can code for so long, I really don't know what to say. May be because I design what I code. But it is really hard to explain it, even to people from the same industry. Lots of people can't wait to get into management so that they can give up coding. And I have been in management since 12 years and I can't give up programming.

[diabloo]

I wanted to do Computer Engineering and join the IT bandwagon. But there were only 60 seats in CS. So I had to join other branch.

When I finished my engineering salary in IT was higher than that offered in my branch. I thought, accidentally I ended in the branch I studied, I was not born to be a trailblazer in the subject I studied. IT welcomed me with open arms. Moreover I want to make some money in life. So I joined IT field.

I am doing the job given to me. Company is satisfied and they are paying me salary. I am open to any another field which offers similar benefits as IT. If you feel I am precious and I can be productive, please let me know how.

Originally Posted by jp1

It seems there is huge crisis developing in our scientific organisations because they are not able to attract bright engineers.

What contribution a Mechanical engineer, or a Civil engineer even an Electronics engineer can do in a Business application? Aren't we grossly wasting precious resources which otherwise could have been used more productively?