[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by am1m

Quite a change I remember from my first few jobs where leaving a job was considered a "betrayal" or at least taken badly by management (and going by some of the comments on this thread, that archaic mentality still persists in pockets!). This just infuses professionalism and a positive vibe into the employee (even former)-company relationship that could have quite easily devolved into an 'us vs them' thing. Kudos to this sort of mindset!

If someone wants to leave its best to let them go and grow into bigger and better people both professionally and personally.

That old saying about setting a bird free rather than keeping him/ her in a gilded cage, is absolutely true.

End of the day, the real measure of a ‘professional upper level manager’ is how independent and empowered and confident his or her team are.

A real leader is merely meant to be there as a ‘direction provider and supporter’ of his/ her team (s).

Here is a small fun thing from Tintin, which I personally find especially relevant in todays world where everyone and their younger cousin is either a ‘Manager’ or a ‘Director’ or a ‘Lead’ of something or other, however obscure.
Everyone wants to ‘manage’ ‘teams’ and ‘people’ whether or not they are qualified or have the necessary aptitude and empathy to do so. And finally there are no frontline or nitty gritty focussed foot soldiers left, to actually fight the battles raging in multiple trenches. Everyone is too busy ‘giving direction’ and ‘expounding gyaan’!

So I keep on tickling up my HR from time to time with this.

[warrioraks]

Originally Posted by am1m

A lot of the focus has been on layoffs at the two biggies, Twitter and FB (Meta). But how much of it was because of the economic climate and how much because of the (questionable?) decisions of the 2 guys in charge?

Not sure about Meta, but the Twitter thing really played out like a circus.

I consider Microsoft as the bellwether for B2B product industry. There is hardly any decent sized business not using a Microsoft product. Even they have laid off people recently. There is definitely some pain ahead for tech professionals in next one year.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by warrioraks

Seems accountability has a new definition now. Laying off other people!

My mistake, so you get punished.

###

On the other hand, what I can't understand is that till last quarter IT people were being poached "left right and center" by luring them with 50-100% hikes.
Suddenly, within one quarter they are downsizing.

LOL. Looks like the guys at helm have no foresight. Don't they don't have a robust order projection (and commitment) process?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by alpha1

My mistake, so you get punished.

Mark personally lost $85B, you think that punishment is not enough?

Originally Posted by alpha1

On the other hand, what I can't understand is that till last quarter IT people were being poached "left right and center" by luring them with 50-100% hikes. Suddenly, within one quarter they are downsizing.

LOL. Looks like the guys at helm have no foresight. Don't they don't have a robust order projection (and commitment) process?

High paying IT companies are not really in the business of providing employment, it may just appear like that.

They hire by paying high salary when they want lots of work done. When they don't have any work, they discard the same people.

In this very thread, there were lots of employees who said "make hay when sun shines", so they should be perfectly fine with the flip side of it.

[speedmiester]

Well the inevitable has happened. After a meteoric growth both in terms of headcount and salaries, the down turn has started and brace for it, this is just the beginning.

The past year and half has seen some ridiculous hiring by most organizations and there was such a FOMO that the companies were ready to pay unjustifiable salaries to hire people, now the tables have turned, that's all. It's a cycle and bear with it.

Yesterday I was speaking with a candidate who was laid off from a company which is associated with a bird and is in news for the past 6 months. The candidate had got 100% hike from their previous role a year ago. When I asked whether the candidate is comfortable with a pay cut or ready to join at same comp, the answer was "NO" and expected a hike of minimum 35%. I said "Good luck" and ended the conversation. The candidate might have lost their job, but not their attitude.

I was ridiculed last year when I forgo a very high paying opportunity to the one where I am today. Today the other organization is laying off people in hundreds and is in a severe fund crunch and might shut down in couple of quarters.

The hiring numbers were so crazy that many of my ex-colleagues started recruitment firms thinking the hiring spree will continue and they can mint money. With the layoffs and hiring freezes, they do not have any business and are back to searching for jobs in a difficult market.

Please be prudent in your decision while changing jobs especially when you have a family and other financial commitments. Have seen many a families suffer the worst during such downturns.

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Mark personally lost $85B, you think that punishment is not enough?

"Notional" loss, isn't? Until he decides to sell-off his stake and retire.

High paying IT companies are not really in the business of providing employment, it may just appear like that.

They hire by paying high salary when they want lots of work done. When they don't have any work, they discard the same people.

In this very thread, there were lots of employees who said "make hay when sun shines", so they should be perfectly fine with the flip side of it.

+1.

Company doesn't blame the employee who decides to switch and it would be applicable vice-versa. As long as the communication is transparent and the separation terms are similar in both cases (notice period, severance pay, etc.)

Originally Posted by speedmiester

The past year and half has seen some ridiculous hiring by most organizations and there was such a FOMO that the companies were ready to pay unjustifiable salaries to hire people, now the tables have turned, that's all. It's a cycle and bear with it.

It was this fear of missing out that has caused this doom in most cases, both for employers and the employees.

Hope everyone comes out stronger and soon.

[poloman]

This is the comment every youngster reading this thread should read again and again
Word of Wisdom from Mr V Narayanan
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post5418257

My children, as would be expected, are all in the work force now. My advice to them, which may apply to most young folks on this thread, is that there is no percentage in complaining - as opposed to offering constructive criticism and shutting the door and moving on. These negative emotions or expressions when indulged in too much stifle our mind's ability to think out our creative solutions and recharge our positive energy and rebuild. At least as a self employed that has been my experience.

Compared to say 25 years ago, not a long time back frankly, social media sites like this thread, Glassdoor, Facebook etc have created a culture where some people have got trapped in a whirlpool of bitching and cursing and forgetting their own agency and creating a misleading notion that the world must shift on its axis to suit our needs. As an observer watching from afar that is what I see. I might be wrong.

This too pass and a new cycle will begin soon. But always keep your feet grounded. World does not revolve around your axis.

[DigitalOne]

Salesforce Fires Hundreds Of Employees As Big Tech Battles Economic Slowdown

Source

The big tech layoffs show no signs of slowing down. After Twitter, Microsoft and Meta, Salesforce has now laid off hundreds of employees, as the industry battles through an economic slowdown.

[warrioraks]

Companies behave like stock markets and typically go overboard. Both while hiring as well as firing. Right now we are at the point where excess hiring has happened at un-sustainable salaries. We can expect the extra flab to be sliced down swiftly over next few months across organisations. Eventually companies will end up firing more than what is needed. Once the cycle turns up again, we will see a repeat craziness to find the right talent. But that seems some time away. For right now, there is a lot of gloom before we see a boom.

[V.Narayan]

For 2023 from what I see in technology companies the layoffs in India in the traditional WITCH companies will not be as dramatic as we've seen in Facebook and Twitter. The newly minted unicorns on the other hand are going to struggle to survive. Each of them is likely to undergo severe downsizing {already underway} and some of them will go bankrupt regardless of brave statements by founders. They have been kept afloat by excess global money {some of it slush} funneled via private equity and the darkening clouds on the global economic horizon crossed by the uncertainty of Putin, Biden and Xi Jinping is, I believe, going to affect these unicorns harshly. So if you work in manufacturing in India your job is probably not at risk. In IT it is somewhat at risk. In Unicorns it is almost certainly at risk.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

When I asked whether the candidate is comfortable with a pay cut or ready to join at same comp, the answer was "NO" and expected a hike of minimum 35%. I said "Good luck" and ended the conversation. The candidate might have lost their job, but not their attitude.

......

The hiring numbers were so crazy that many of my ex-colleagues started recruitment firms thinking the hiring spree will continue and they can mint money. With the layoffs and hiring freezes, they do not have any business and are back to searching for jobs in a difficult market.

Aren't both the cases a case of high Risk-Reward gamble? Those who have the ability to withstand the storm, continue to take Risks and some of them do get high Rewards. Those who don't want to take too much risk or don't have the capacity to absorb the shock (say unemployment for 3 months?) don't do so.

Few could be unfortunate to get fired without their fault but then they do pick whatever next is available and move on.

[Jeroen]

I mentioned before; I think the Indian industry is selling itself cheaply. Providing IT service at the lowest man hour rate is simply not a sustainable business model.

The other aspect is that I feel the IT industry is very much orientated to selling manhours, rather than taking on products and or long term services. Or real turn key projects.

They require a totally different company set up and a different IT organisation obviously. Product Companies such as for instance SAP or take some of the large billing platform providers sell a software product. Very different. Even during downtime those companies will still invest in R&D, because that will ultimately is likely to give them a competitive edge.

Product companies consumer from economic down turns. But at the same time they tend to suffer even less, sometimes even prosper. Some have also managed to get themselves into a very interesting service model.

Jeroen

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I mentioned before; I think the Indian industry is selling itself cheaply. Providing IT service at the lowest man hour rate is simply not a sustainable business model.

The other aspect is that I feel the IT industry is very much orientated to selling manhours, rather than taking on products and or long term services. Or real turn key projects.

Product companies consumer from economic down turns. But at the same time they tend to suffer even less, sometimes even prosper. Some have also managed to get themselves into a very interesting service model.

Jeroen

This may have been the truism a while ago and yes in the main, the majority of Indian IT sell ‘services’ more than ‘product’.

However there are a few companies like the one I work for, which sells a bunch of very useful IT Products and Services as a’bundle’ and is able to charge a fair price and hold its own quite nicely in the world scheme of things.

Saying this, overall as an Industry, we do need a ‘step change’ in mind set. We need to train ourselves to think from the Outside-In point of view and build and offer what the Customer needs. In this sense we need to be proactively ahead of the curve, often doing advance thinking on behalf of the customer. Only then, can we become ‘cutting edge’ by anticipating things and employing ‘design thinking’ and thus becoming ‘future-proof’ rather than merely ‘future-ready’.

[warrioraks]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

For 2023 from what I see in technology companies the layoffs in India in the traditional WITCH companies will not be as dramatic as we've seen in Facebook and Twitter. The newly minted unicorns on the other hand are going to struggle to survive. Each of them is likely to undergo severe downsizing {already underway} and some of them will go bankrupt regardless of brave statements by founders. They have been kept afloat by excess global money {some of it slush} funneled via private equity and the darkening clouds on the global economic horizon crossed by the uncertainty of Putin, Biden and Xi Jinping is, I believe, going to affect these unicorns harshly. So if you work in manufacturing in India your job is probably not at risk. In IT it is somewhat at risk. In Unicorns it is almost certainly at risk.

Fully agreed. Beyond unicorns, would generalise and say that any company which is not profitable will find it very very difficult to sustain over next few quarters. Cash is getting expensive. Investors are far & few. Loan rates are going through the roof.

So the bottom line for employees

- if your company is not generating operating profit today, prepare your CV and start looking out.

- on the other hand, if you are in a financially stable company, still go ahead and prepare for tough times (read: recession). Bad luck and management decisions can strike anyone.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

This may have been the truism a while ago and yes in the main, the majority of Indian IT sell ‘services’ more than ‘product’.

I think the issue is they sell these services on a man-hour basis. That means there is little added value, and typically these contract can be terminated very quickly.

I am thinking more along the lines of Managed Services Contracts. These are typically multiple year contracts where a company outsources their operations to a service provider. In India this has been done plenty of times, but if you look into these contracts you will find they are still based on man hours and man hour rates. So again, the real added value, apart from lowering the cost is small.

In my world a Managed Service Contract would usually be 3-5 year contract. In which we guarantee to bring down overall cost for the business as well as increase performance of the network. The pricing tends not to be linked to our cost price, but to the added value of our customers. It also means we invest heavily in all kinds of automation, AI and the likes.

So although it is still a relative labour intense type of service, it is the outcome of that service to the customer that is the most relevant and where we differentiate ourselves from our competitors. Investing in these sort of business models takes many years, to build the skill sets, the processes, a global presence with people and platforms and automation, including AI etc. It is also a model that tends to create steady topline and margin, although maybe not as much as typical product sales.

It is very much about building skill across all your resources, so people, competence, platforms, R&D etc. Requires very much a long term approach and the guts and potential to invest long term and build the business. We have been doing it for about 2 decades. Took many years before it became really profitable.

Jeroen