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Old 23rd February 2023, 17:36   #916
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by kaushikduttajsr View Post
money is not the only reason
I agree. Another reason is to experience the freedom to implement your own solution as long as it works (mostly applies to those places where everything is a microservice). So these companies do give that learning experience which people often associate with a startup.

But this does not explain why average retention in these companies (add Uber too, to make it UMAANG ) is just 2 years. If quality of work is the USP, why would people leave instead of making a solid foundation in the initial years? They do get the variery of skillsets to learn in that company itself, as you said.

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I have personally switched between completely unrelated teams (Supply chain operations to Fintech product)
Have switched products in a popular Silicon Valley behemoth. In my experience, if you are a developer, the core job rarely changes even if you switch domains. Yes the programming language in my case changed from C++ to Java, but thats about it. End of the day, it was still "problem solving" in the form of feature design and development.
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Old 24th February 2023, 09:51   #917
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

Trying to help a former colleague out by forwarding his resume and realized an issue with having a fancy, or non-standard job title. Recruiters at most big companies, at least at the first, or screening-level, barely have time to look through a resume (the fact that they don't is an issue that leads to several hiring problems, and needs to be corrected, but that is a whole other discussion). At quite a few places, this first-level screening could very well be automated.

So if you have a ridiculous job title like "senior doer of things" (not kidding, I've seen this on a LinkedIn profile of someone I know), you'd better be pretty confident that you're going to be at that company for a long time and won't need to look for a job if you get laid off, because no one at the less 'cooler' companies is going to know where to match you for a role, even if they have one open!

Even if your company insists on trying to be cool by assigning roles like "thought leader", "engineering leader" (what kind of engineering? Piping? Software? Hardware? BBMP? And what does 'leader' mean? Manager? Team Lead? Architect?), do yourself a favour and standardize it on your profile.

Last edited by am1m : 24th February 2023 at 10:00.
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Old 24th February 2023, 15:14   #918
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Even if your company insists on trying to be cool by assigning roles like "thought leader", "engineering leader" (what kind of engineering? Piping? Software? Hardware? BBMP? And what does 'leader' mean? Manager? Team Lead? Architect?), do yourself a favour and standardize it on your profile.
Are these titles issued by the company, or self-inflicted? My cousin used to have the title Technical Evangelist, issued by a WITCH company.

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Another strange habit I noticed today. Using made up title... Flag Bearer as the title in a WITCH company. I don't think that title was ever issued to that person.
This one I am sure was self-awarded.
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Old 24th February 2023, 15:29   #919
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Are these titles issued by the company, or self-inflicted?
Usually self-awarded (though 'inflicted' seems more appropriate!). Sometimes the person writing job-descriptions at smaller companies try to make their job stand out by using something like this. Sometimes teams come up with these titles within the org to stand out. (I've worked for one such team and with great difficulty a few of us managed to keep our job titles from changing to something really ridiculous!) Usually employees change their profiles thinking that'll make them stand out. But usually it ends up getting them excluded from key-word searches by recruiters.

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My cousin used to have the title Technical Evangelist, issued by a WITCH company.
I remember the 'evangelist' phase! That was after the 'advocate' phase (client advocate, people advocate, xyz technology advocate). Now we're in the 'leader/leadership' phase - 'thought leader', 'head of thought leadership'...
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Old 24th February 2023, 15:59   #920
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

Infosys founder Narayan Murthy warns young employees against moonlighting, asks them to not work from home

Infosys founder NR Narayana Murthy warned against moonlighting while speaking at the Asia Economic Dialogue organised by the Ministry of External Affairs in Delhi this week. Murthy also suggested young employees to opt for work from office culture over work from home.

Sending out a message to young employees, Murthy said that youngsters should not get involved in moonlighting or entertain work from home culture. Instead, they should work from office. He encouraged the younger generation to ensure that ethics and laziness are given special focus. "My fervent desire and humble desire to youngsters is please don't fall into this trap of I will moonlight, I will do work from home, I will come to office three days in a week," Murthy said during the recent event.
To recall, Infosys from the very beginning has been against employees moonlighting. The company even fired a bunch of employees for practicing moonlighting a couple of months ago. However, the IT company recently announced measures to make things easier for employees who want to earn extra money. It wants employees to take the firm’s permission before being a part of a freelancing gig. "Any employee, who wishes to take up gig work, may do so, with the prior consent of their manager and BP-HR, and in their personal time, for establishments that do not compete with Infosys or Infosys' clients," Infosys noted in one of the emails it sent to employees. The moonlighting topic has been buzzing in the corporate space for a long time and most tech companies have only been against the concept.

https://www.indiatoday.in/technology...095-2023-02-24

Reddit comment section on this topic is interesting.

Last edited by Latheesh : 24th February 2023 at 16:04.
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Old 24th February 2023, 16:46   #921
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by Latheesh View Post
Infosys founder Narayan Murthy warns young employees against moonlighting, asks them to not work from home
Although the man has achieved a lot, he's 76 years old today and really needs to be ignored further for good. He's just talking for himself/shareholders today without any value addition in society. His efforts to increase working hours temporarily, have never been revoked after the pandemic resulting in needlessly burnt out employees who are being billed for additional hours without any obvious benefit to the client or employees (apart from extra holidays which many can't even use) while forcing WFO. My best wishes to all those affected.
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Old 24th February 2023, 19:56   #922
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

WFO in a place like Bangalore? How does he plan for employees to reach office or do people at that level are completely oblivious of the realities of commute? Is he aware of sky rocketing rents in most IT centric locations in Bangalore? A lot of new employees of his may not even be making what rents in a decent place these days are.
Sorry for ranting but it's a bad model and this is really not the best way to retain or attract talent.
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Old 24th February 2023, 21:28   #923
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Infosys founder Narayan Murthy warns young employees against moonlighting, asks them to not work from home
It’s layoff season. So companies will call the shots on what’s permitted and what’s not. All this humble request and all are just PR posturing.

If my memory serves right, last year same time most big companies were on a back foot when it came to getting employees back to office. Every manager and their boss was worried about attrition and talent crunch if people were forced to give up work from home. Even biggies like Apple and Google struggled with it.

Now tables have almost turned 180 degrees with onset of slowdown. So the companies and the HR folks will dictate the terms for next few quarters. Employees not willing to follow are at a serious risk of being ignored during year-end reviews or worst, even getting the pink slip.

In automotive terms, it’s a buyer’s market right now.

Last edited by warrioraks : 24th February 2023 at 21:31.
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Old 25th February 2023, 07:48   #924
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

Indians companies are investing in AI while chopping jobs... says an AI expert.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-invest-in-ai/

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December-January are typically slow months in Australia, where I am based, so I spent the better part of these two months on a whirlwind tour of India. During this time, I met several CIOs, CXOs and AI industry experts across different sectors. One thing completely surprised me. These leaders actually see investments in AI & ML as their top priority and are looking to increase their spending because of the current economic conditions. This is a complete departure from the earlier approach of organisations to hunker down and weather the storm simply.
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Old 25th February 2023, 08:47   #925
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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WFO in a place like Bangalore? How does he plan for employees to reach office or do people at that level are completely oblivious of the realities of commute? Is he aware of sky rocketing rents in most IT centric locations in Bangalore? A lot of new employees of his may not even be making what rents in a decent place these days are.
Sorry for ranting but it's a bad model and this is really not the best way to retain or attract talent.
Quite true. A part of me feels sorry for all those techies who have to (needlessly?) wade through maddening traffic chaos and pollution just to get to workplace. But at least they get to sit in AC offices, eat in in-campus Cafeteria etc.

Kindly read your post again, just from a non-IT person (like me) perspective. The other part of me thinks: When will techies from IT realize that non-IT guys have been suffering the same silently for nearly 25 years now? No scope for WFH for even one day a week. No multi-fold jumps in salaries when you change jobs while struggling with skyrocketing prices (partly due to IT boom). Below par raises in annual salary. And in most cases, no AC offices, no cafeteria, just the small Darshini round the corner.

The above is just my perspective from a non-IT point of view. Often when I read posts and rants in this thread, I feel that many techies live a bubble and dont have a feel for whats happening on the outside.

Last edited by srvm : 25th February 2023 at 09:08.
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Old 25th February 2023, 09:08   #926
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
WFO in a place like Bangalore? How does he plan for employees to reach office or do people at that level are completely oblivious of the realities of commute? Is he aware of sky rocketing rents in most IT centric locations in Bangalore? A lot of new employees of his may not even be making what rents in a decent place these days are.
My boss had a simple question when someone pointed this (similar argument as yours) out to him. Traffic has always been bad in Bangalore, even before 2020. Rents have been high too, since years now. And people knew this well while taking up an offer and used to work under the same above mentioned conditions. So what has changed today that we see the resistance from an employee to relocate to Bangalore or come to office?

Someone told him that we are aware the company can go on even if we are remote so coming back to office seems futile. His response: pre-2020, some companies which offered flexibility to come to office occasionally are setting similar terms even in 2022. What more? No one had a counter.

Last edited by ashis89 : 25th February 2023 at 09:10.
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Old 25th February 2023, 09:30   #927
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
... No one had a counter.
Grey haired specimens in the crowd know a circular rhetorical argument when they hear one, and don't engage further.

What's different pre and post-pandemic is the body of evidence supporting remote working for roles where it's a possibility. One could earlier argue individually that they believe WFH won't hurt their individual productivity. Now they know it can work at scale, something no large employer or industry would've tried without being forced by circumstances.

'But everyone else is revoking it!' is not an argument. It's the 'I'm the boss, you're not!' card being played.
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Old 25th February 2023, 09:57   #928
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Quite true. A part of me feels sorry for all those techies who have to (needlessly?) wade through maddening traffic chaos and pollution just to get to workplace. But at least they get to sit in AC offices, eat in in-campus Cafeteria etc.....
....The above is just my perspective from a non-IT point of view. Often when I read posts and rants in this thread, I feel that many techies live a bubble and don't have a feel for what's happening on the outside.
Thank you @srvm for saying it as it is. While I carry no sympathy for Narayan Murthy and his games or for the on off policies towards employees the big Tech companies pursue speaking from the employers side some IT workers in India do occasionally carry the notion that they are special and what they do is unique because of the significantly higher salaries and overseas opportunities they get. Not the fault of these young people. This has been created rather consciously curated for them by these very same employers to attract the best talent and create that halo to attract potential employees on the tap. The reason IT pays higher salaries is not because the employees are superior or the companies are better run but because of the purchasing power parity between the INR and the USD. You buy factors of production in INR and sell your output in USD. The PPP hides the corporate's inefficiencies.

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
WFO in a place like Bangalore? How does he plan for employees to reach office or do people at that level are completely oblivious of the realities of commute? Is he aware of sky rocketing rents in most IT centric locations in Bangalore? A lot of new employees of his may not even be making what rents in a decent place these days are.
Sorry for ranting but it's a bad model and this is really not the best way to retain or attract talent.
Full WFH is not likely to happen. What could happen is a hybrid model {already has} of various configurations and a 'independent consultant working from home' model which is common in the West. Most in India given our real need for financial security may not like the latter option. WFH over the extended pandemic period caused immense security problems for IT companies and their clients because no matter how deep a moat you create, with thousands of employees logging in from God knows where, damaging malware creeps in. Neither the papers nor the corporates talk of it but that pandemic period was exploited by security trouble makers to target Indian companies delivering IT services to US companies. These troublemakers were believed to be from China - but one can't prove these things. After the Ukraine war started a second front opened up on IT attacks on our Tech companies servicing US clients. One can guess where those came from.

As a young IT worker I empathize with your frustration on rents and costs. Sadly all others from non-IT industries in BLR or BOM are also living in the same environment. Where rents go I have experienced this anger as a young person in Bombay years ago.

The risk to our vast army of IT workers is not from rent of traffic but from AI. As a nation we are not ready for a day where thousands of IT jobs vanish thanks to AI.

Last edited by libranof1987 : 25th February 2023 at 12:05. Reason: As requested
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Old 25th February 2023, 10:15   #929
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
My boss had a simple question when someone pointed this (similar argument as yours) out to him. Traffic has always been bad in Bangalore, even before 2020. Rents have been high too, since years now. And people knew this well while taking up an offer and used to work under the same above mentioned conditions. So what has changed today that we see the resistance from an employee to relocate to Bangalore or come to office?

Someone told him that we are aware the company can go on even if we are remote so coming back to office seems futile. His response: pre-2020, some companies which offered flexibility to come to office occasionally are setting similar terms even in 2022. What more? No one had a counter.
He's the old guard, so he has skin in the game, not professionally, but in renting out his investment properties and the like. Rents have skyrocketed much beyond the usual, a 50% hike in 2 years isn't the same as "always been high".

No one had a counter because he's the boss and he's doing the whole stakeholder bs that veterans know. It goes something like this, after deciding, ask opinions and then shoot down all opposition with abstracts or non sequitur. Those who agreed know the routine, there's no use wasting time arguing with thick skinned people. I hope the meeting didn't include the usual water cooler talk, company culture and innovation. All the best for the company ethnic day.

I've been working beyond office hours the last two days, not possible with WFO, critical problems don't follow office hours. The big advantage for those with overseas clients is making the office hours overlap with wfh, a single appreciation letter can be the pivot in your career. I've seen too many cases to believe wfo is anything other than a real estate scamster support initiative, IT services has very little face to face interaction, that's the vast majority and no, the pay isn't enough to afford the rent these days.
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Old 25th February 2023, 10:29   #930
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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...

Full WFH is not likely to happen. What could happen is a hybrid model {already has} of various configurations and a 'independent consultant working from home' model...
Thank you, for continuing to emphasize the nuance in the situation, instead of the binary argument it often becomes.

There's a spectrum with WFH at one end and WFO at another, and various industries, companies and roles within fall somewhere on it. None of the operating models are new by themselves or pandemic-created, and neither one is a one-size-fits-all solution.

What the pandemic has done is provide evidence at scale of what is or isn't doable, and removed some of the skepticism or 'conventional wisdom' barriers to how some roles can be performed. Decisions can now be evidence-backed, instead of a risky hunch. It is still upto individual people and organizations to find what combination works for them. Wanting a WFH role and working for an organization and/or industry that can't support it is an exercise in futility. Cuts both ways; wanting to herd workers to office for roles that can be done remotely, will eventually thin out the target worker pool for the employer.

My own organization spans the whole spectrum; people who absolutely have to be inside a specific room in the building to do their job, and people who've never seen the inside of the building, since well before COVID was a thing (even IT hardware is shipped FedEx Priority).

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...WFH over the extended pandemic period caused immense security problems for It companies...
Another aspect hard to explain to individual employees. There are technological limitations imposed by either scalability, operational consistency or contractual obligations that make it impossible to secure company/customer data outside of a siloed setup. During the pandemic, several of my colleagues had to be brought in with special permissions on rotation (with stringent safety measures) to operate and maintain systems and procedures that simply could not be done to a consistent, customer-acceptable standard remotely, even if it was technically possible.

Goes without saying it's exponentially harder for smaller companies, who can't afford to sink significant capital into solving some of these challenges, to compete with larger ones that can, true in general but especially so in times of hardship when capital is at a premium. A lot of fantastic small setups lost out on great opportunities because they simply couldn't afford the capex/opex needed to scale remotely.

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...we are not ready for a day where thousands of IT jobs vanish thanks to AI.
It's become a meme: 'You won't lose your job to AI, you'll lose it to someone who knows how to use AI'.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 25th February 2023 at 10:39.
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