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Old 21st June 2023, 14:06   #1201
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by jaysheth View Post
Do not worry. Just tell them that you are not poaching anyone and ask them to share any complaint towards you in writing (email is fine), so that you can consult your lawyer and circle back (do mention the lawyer point if required, so that they know they cannot run scot-free after threatening you on phone). Ask them to not trouble you on phone, saying that it is not possible for you to entertain them on phone especially during office hours, as you need to focus on your own job. Be polite yet firm. Ask them to stop calling you randomly, as you are (and better be) busy with your current responsibilities.

I did the same thing, I just stayed calm and told clearly that I am not forcing anyone to follow me and more than that people are matured enough to take decisions about their career

Always keep in mind thata these conversations might be getting recorded without you being informed (which itself is unethical), so if they accuse you of something, stay calm and say you are putting false allegations on me. Many a time if we lose temper we lose the ability to rationally argue, so just stay cool, calm and composed. Ask them to respect your time and put their accusations in writing.

Slightly off-topic but since you mentioned: What many of us follow as interview panelists is to refrain from interviewing our own ex-colleagues or any candidate who we personally know. You can just say that you know the interviewee already and hence you would not like to interview him/her, and request someone else to take that interview. Even your existing employer will appreciate that gesture/professionalism, and no one in your previous/current organization will have a reason to think you're selecting your/known folks yourself, or poaching!

The above should do the trick. As many have said above, do not spoil your own peace of mind because of some unprofessional folks. All the best!
Unfortunately I have to take the interviews as I am the only Lead in the team, but this is a nice suggestion, will see if I can find any alternative

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Originally Posted by am1m View Post
Don't worry at all. Since you say you had nothing to do with getting people to switch, you have nothing to worry about.

And say, even if you did, so what. I've known enough HR folk and top management executives who do the same. Why does the HR head of every IT company support and promote their 'referral system/bonus' if they don't want to encourage their employees to encourage people they know from other companies to apply? Funny how when a 'founder/entrepreneur/CEO' 'brings his team over' it's something to admire, otherwise it's poaching! Always different standards. Ignore these people who never practice what they preach.

Absolutely! This is the best and correct thing to do. If you know the candidate you are interviewing/referring personally, you should never be a part of the interview panel.

EDIT:

My suggestion is not to respond to them at all and avoid escalating the situation. But if they are stupid enough to keep harassing you:

https://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...ce-834277.html
Thank you, I have informed my boss about the situation and he says this is just a mind game and they are trying to scare me so that I don't select any more employees from previous organisations

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Originally Posted by PreludeSH View Post
If you have not forwarded their Resume nor taking part in interviews there is nothing to fear.

People come to know about companies hiring when someone joins a certain company. Senior executives actually take a big team when they leave and no one makes it an issue.

I am not sure if there is a official rule regarding this aspect and what numbers constitute poaching.
I am part of interviews but the referrals are from different employees

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Dear@TM_Turbo,

I write this as a brother Team BHPian and not as an employer more so as Team BHP is here as a forum of mutual help. As an employer of many decades standing I/my company has been in the shoes of your ex-organization's HR department and done the nasty things they are trying to do now. So this is advice from the other side - the evil employer :-)

Usually on this thread I fly the flag for the beleaguered employer but sensing you seem to be genuinely concerned here is my honest answer below. I assume there are no more hidden facts or written trails other than what you have stated above. Hope this helps. Best of luck with your new career.

V.Narayan
If you do not have a written trail of emails or hard copy letters inviting an ex-colleague to quit you have nothing, absolutely nothing to worry about as far as the law of the land goes. Even if you do have the odd mail trail and if they were silly enough to file a case against you any Judge with half a brain won't even permit a case to be filed. So, chill.
Ignore their calls. You are not obliged to pick up their calls unless they owe you some money -e.g., gratuity or other dues. Let them deal with their own frustrations. Avoid yelling or fighting with them as bad blood has a way of circling back. Quietly ignoring is the best route. Today's news wraps tomorrow's fish. With time this will die out on its own.

Nakko, Nyet, Nah, No, Nahin. What does your original employment letter with them say + do you have a written trail of any kind inviting folks to join your current organization + are you being paid an incentive by your current employer to bring friends and associates to them - those are the questions you need to ask yourself. From a practical point of view, I'd say you are snug safe and happy. If you were a CEO who went about poaching with enthusiasm, then they may have been in a better position to take a tougher stand. Enjoy your new role and best of luck.
Hi Narayan, Thank you for your inputs, like I said I have not forced people to join my current organization and there is no letter or email been sent out by me asking them to join my organisation. I also checked the offer letter from my previous organisation and there is nothing mentioned such as anti poaching policy or soliciting employees. However as part of exit process there is a policy that the employees has to sign which states "not to induce or attempt to induce any person employed by the firm to leave the employment of the firm".

Due to the professional relationship that I have built with my ex colleagues they all want to follow me and they reach out to me over whatsapp asking me if there are any openings and the only response that I give them is " There might be few openings coming up and I will let them know about it" but later I don't even have to inform them, as there are few people already joined they itself refer more people, however previous organisation thinks that I am the influencer and I am pulling in people
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Old 21st June 2023, 14:33   #1202
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

On a lighter note, offer that HR a job in your new org if there is one.

Chill man, this is a common thing. The HR is just trying to scare you to avoid any further damage with attrition. Itís very tough for them to hunt again and finalise new recruits.
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Old 21st June 2023, 14:40   #1203
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by TM_Turbo View Post
Now I am getting calls from previous organisation HR stating that they heard I have been poaching their employees by forcing them to join my current organisation which is unethical and itís against anti poaching policy.
Addressed to the entire forum:

How can HR cite "anti-poaching" policy? This term itself smells of anti-competitive malpractice (restricting free movement of labor) and any company (or two parties) indulging in such policy ought to be legally punished.
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Old 21st June 2023, 15:02   #1204
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Addressed to the entire forum:

How can HR cite "anti-poaching" policy? This term itself smells of anti-competitive malpractice (restricting free movement of labor) and any company (or two parties) indulging in such policy ought to be legally punished.
I'm not a lawyer, but IMH (and probably legally uninformed) O, they can't. Unless I guess the two companies have some sort of contractual agreement preventing employees from one company joining another and even then it will be for a certain period, say six months after leaving and that agreement has to be signed by the employees of the company. Any labour lawyers, please correct, if that's wrong.

Which is why I referred to the article I'd posted before, where a court has already decided on this matter:

https://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...ce-834277.html

"Poaching Employees of Another Firm is No Offence"

"The Hyderabad High Court has made it clear that a company can take action against its employees only if the service contract between them permits such an action. It is because the employees are not the property of the company concerned, it has observed."

"That apart, no law is laid down prohibiting one organisation inviting the employees of another organisation to its fold by offering lucrative pay packages. So, complainant cannot harp that the accused committed any offence. It may at best take action against its own employees if the service contract between them permits such action,Ē the judge observed."
-------------------------------------

Yes, we IT employees have it good and much better than people working in most other industries, especially in our country. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of our position legally. Or should be subject to any random policy any company HR department dreams up!
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Old 21st June 2023, 15:22   #1205
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by TM_Turbo View Post
Hi Narayan, Thank you for your inputs, like I said I have not forced people to join my current organization and there is no letter or email been sent out by me asking them to join my organisation. I also checked the offer letter from my previous organisation and there is nothing mentioned such as anti poaching policy or soliciting employees. However as part of exit process there is a policy that the employees has to sign which states "not to induce or attempt to induce any person employed by the firm to leave the employment of the firm".
Young man you are as safe as the gold in Fort Knox. Just relax and don't think about it.
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Old 21st June 2023, 15:28   #1206
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

Thank you so much for kind responses, this gives me lot more strength to fight whatever comes my way.

I think we as a team bhp members are of solid strength when it comes to supporting each other

Once again thank you all, will keep this forum posted if there are any further updates
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Old 21st June 2023, 18:51   #1207
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by am1m View Post
What about the thousands of small and medium-sized businesses that need IT products/services? Has that demand risen a lot? Thanks in advance for any information.
They can't afford software services. It is possible to sell products (or SaaS) exclusively for Indian market because of the volume. However, customized services is 1-on-1, just one customer. They can rarely afford the cost of software development, by software engineers whose salaries are fixed based on dollar exchange rate and US prices.

Over 6 years ago, I had alluded to this while discussing how H1B killed domestic software services industry. Now it has gone beyond just H1B. Since most US companies directly hire engineers in India using a local branch, even banishing H1B will not set right this problem. It is an open secret in Indian IT industry. We can pay prevailing salaries for Indian software engineers only because of US sales.

In my circle, some of the funded companies didn't understand this because they were not paying attention to cashflow. VCs paid the operational cost, so they ignored basic economics. They tried to sell services in India, and after a while realized they can never reach profitability. Duh!

Last edited by Samurai : 21st June 2023 at 18:53.
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Old 22nd June 2023, 09:12   #1208
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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They can't afford software services.
...
We can pay prevailing salaries for Indian software engineers only because of US sales.
Thanks Samurai San for that information. I figured the situation might be something like this, but wasn't sure because I don't have much first-hand experience.

But it's in-line with my experience more than a decade ago, at a job where we implemented a solution for our first Indian client. The client was a top brand name in their field, could easily afford the cost of the product, which was designed for the US market. But the time and cost required to customize the solution for the Indian market proved too much. Ultimately we lost money on the deal and some heads (more senior than mine) rolled. And as a result the company lost interest in the Indian market and the Bangalore center is still happy to serve as the outsourced product development center for the US head office.

I was hoping that with the number of startups, push for Indian products, for automation and IT even from smaller businesses, and push to move up the value chain, the scenario would be different.

I can only think of Tally as an example of a successful home-grown IT product. Surely there must be others. Does Finacle still count?

Last edited by am1m : 22nd June 2023 at 09:14.
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Old 22nd June 2023, 10:01   #1209
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by TM_Turbo View Post

Now I am getting calls from previous organisation HR stating that they heard I have been poaching their employees by forcing them to join my current organisation which is unethical and itís against anti poaching policy.
Is there any formal agreement between 2 companies regarding poaching?
If there is an opening and you let formal colleagues know about it and eventually make attractive offers, there is nothing unethical about it. How can you force someone to join? You can only make compelling offers which is a normal thing.
If they try to go the legal way, they will be hurting their own cause (I am sure they would have hired people from competitors and one can make the same allegations against them)
If you get a call again, tell them that you feel being harassed and would take a legal action. In fact put this in a mail and copy the HR head as well.
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Old 22nd June 2023, 10:06   #1210
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Originally Posted by am1m View Post

I was hoping that with the number of startups, push for Indian products, for automation and IT even from smaller businesses, and push to move up the value chain, the scenario would be different.

I can only think of Tally as an example of a successful home-grown IT product. Surely there must be others. Does Finacle still count?
Zoho is another successful company catering to the enterprise market.

This market is very tough as enterprises look for long term reliability. Established global brands like SAP or Oracle find it easier to localize their global products and sell in India.

On the other hand, this is not at all bad for the customers. SAP or Oracle bring in the global best practices in their localized products. As Indian companies expand globally, for e.g. Tatas acquiring Tetley, or M&M acquiring Ssangyong, it is easier for Indian companies to consolidate from a business processes or technology perspective if the backend ERP is the same.
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Old 22nd June 2023, 10:14   #1211
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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I can only think of Tally as an example of a successful home-grown IT product. Surely there must be others. Does Finacle still count?
There are plenty of successful home-grown IT products, it doesn't have to be famous like Tally to be called successful. It is software services (customized) that is economically unviable in India.

Doesn't Finacle require huge amount of customization for each client? In that case you can't really file it under product. I would classify it as a framework or platform, instead of readymade product.
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Old 22nd June 2023, 12:05   #1212
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Zoho is another successful company catering to the enterprise market.
Zoho is a SaaS company, which means it is a product company that rents the software licenses instead of selling licenses.

Which country is their biggest customer? USA

To be really successful even in products, US has to be your top priority.

https://www.usesignhouse.com/blog/zoho-stats

I am a Zoho customer myself, their SaaS products are a life saver for me. Back in 2020 I setup my entire accounting/HR/payroll during lockdown using Zoho.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 09:28   #1213
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Hi All

I am in a very disturbed state of mind, I thought I can take suggestions from this forum

I was working for an organisation and I was leading a team of 30 people, last year I moved to one of the competitor company due to financial reasons and itís been 6 months now.

As a growing organisation there are lot of openings and few people my previous organisation and previous team have joined my current organisation based on their own decisions and I have not influenced any one.

Now I am getting calls from previous organisation HR stating that they heard I have been poaching their employees by forcing them to join my current organisation which is unethical and itís against anti poaching policy.

I am worried what would be the impact of this, will there be any impact on my career or will there be any legal implications of this. I have not forced anyone nor I have influenced anyone to move on, people are matured enough to take their own decisions. But this thing has been disturbed me a lot

Can you all please share your thoughts
Get a competent lawyer and send out a legal notice to the HR asking for compensation for defamation and damage. That should stop the fishing expedition. Be sure in your mind beforehand that you truly didnt influence anyone to leave your earlier company though.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 09:51   #1214
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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I am worried what would be the impact of this, will there be any impact on my career or will there be any legal implications of this.
I am assuming that your "Full and Final" is all settled from previous organization, and they are not that evil to hold back on any pending dues company owes you. If F&F is squared-off and you are in possession of experience letter, then need not worry.

Since you have already informed current organization about the situation, I would not worry too much. Focus on your current job and role.

I do hope that you have ex colleagues that you can talk to informally without crossing any line and try to understand the situation.

In case the HR keeps pestering you, please keep your composure and do no react in any negative way. Keep a very formal and crisp reply like we hear on any customer complaint calls. I don't know how ethical or correct it is, however, you can record conversation next time they call you. Do not tell them or let them know about recording. Dashcam's are need of the day in all aspects of life.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 10:48   #1215
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Re: Jobs, Attrition & Layoffs in IT companies

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Unfortunately I have to take the interviews as I am the only Lead in the team, but this is a nice suggestion, will see if I can find any alternative
I'm in a similar situation, but even then I never interview anyone who I personally know. Doing so can land you in trouble with the current company also. whenever I am asked to interview someone I know, I reject it(in email) and pass a feedback about the candidate to the hiring manager. If the feedback is good, the hiring manager will use this as a baseline and arrange interview with someone else with a similar/compatible skillset to avoid conflict of interest.

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Thank you, I have informed my boss about the situation and he says this is just a mind game and they are trying to scare me so that I don't select any more employees from previous organisations
Exactly. HRs are under too much pressure to find new resources when people leave the company. And if it is a niche skill, the pressure is even more. So they try to play such unofficial threats to avoid more resignations. Most of the time such threats are over phone calls only and the moment you ask them to send it in an email, they stop calling.
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