[Enobarbus]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Astrology could be a chanced-upon knowledge, not yet understood fully. Hence, in the current form, it is not a science. But everything in this world, in this universe is in one way or other linked to everything else.

Maybe. But some fundamental questions: Will it be worth the time and effort of the scientific community if they decide to pursue this? What are the chances that the sum total of human knowledge will increase sufficiently for this to be considered as reasonable ROI?

In most of the simple statistical tests, astrology has failed. I mean the kind of tests where you give the horoscope of 10 people and see how many correct predictions did the astrologer give.

So how can the scientific community take this seriously?

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by Enobarbus

Maybe. But some fundamental questions: Will it be worth the time and effort of the scientific community if they decide to pursue this? What are the chances that the sum total of human knowledge will increase sufficiently for this to be considered as reasonable ROI?

In most of the simple statistical tests, astrology has failed. I mean the kind of tests where you give the horoscope of 10 people and see how many correct predictions did the astrologer give.

So how can the scientific community take this seriously?

True. But the same hold true for many things - like intuition, after-life, concept of soul. It's not worth the time and efforts.

But how would you discount the power of belief? of Faith? it's not scientifically understood. Perhaps, there is a reason why many scientists are very religious. I know, you know, everyone with a basic understanding of science know that there is no god. The whole concept of a god is redundant from scientific point of view. But we still believe. Because it gives a meaning to many things which are mundane. There is a fundamental theological question - What is the purpose of life? Why are there living beings on earth? What purpose does presence of life serves to the larger cosmos? What do we eventually gain by understanding things and pursuing scientific studies?

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by Samurai

You are using god of the gaps argument towards astrology?

I agree this analogy won't win any logical and scientific debates. The thing about astrology is that it is based on interpretation. The astrologer is supposed to superimpose his interpretation on the facts (date, place of birth, astronomical parameters etc.) to arrive at an answer. This interpretation part is what eliminates the vagueness. However, this is totally dependent on the skills and experience of the astrologer.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ksameer1234

This interpretation part is what eliminates the vagueness. However, this is totally dependent on the skills and experience of the astrologer.

Which leads to No true Scotsman fallacy. If prediction is wrong, astrologer is bad. If the prediction is right, astrology is a science.

[sushantr5]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

There is a fundamental theological question - What is the purpose of life? Why are there living beings on earth? What purpose does presence of life serves to the larger cosmos? What do we eventually gain by understanding things and pursuing scientific studies?

We tend to believe God because our past generations are trained to believe it. Past generations never asked questions because most of things were unexplained in those times. Now science is accessible so we ask question and we want to know truth behind it. As we are gaining knowledge, we are explaining things unexplained and the concept of some Super Power is disappearing with time.

Our human brain is so weak that most of the people would like to believe that somebody is there to care us; like children need parents to feel safe. Probably this feeling has given birth to the concept of GOD. Concept of GOD further gave birth to Superstitions and other branches of similar phenomenon like astrology.

We tend to exist on earth merely by chance. We do not know that similar life is present on other planet because universe is simply gigantic. If we put complete history of earth in one calendar year then time from homo sapiens to current time, will be covered by last 24 minutes of the year. Time from Industrial revolution can be covered in last 2 seconds. The scale is simply massive and unimaginable. The result of evolution today that we are here today. Hard to believe but it is only by chance. And there is strong probability of similar chances on many other planets.

Even if we assume Astrology is science invented through analysis of Data. Imagine the efforts people have spent in to collect and analyse data without any computational aid. If we want to invent it today similar theory of Astrology, we have vast amount data and super computers to prove the theory; but we are not doing it. Or people have done it and found that there is nothing like that.

For me Astrology is the phenomenon created through plagiarism of others invention, in this case work of Astronomers and mathematicians.

[V.Narayan]

The ancients called it astrology. In modern day parlance it is called business forecasting. Some decide the date of their wedding with astrology. Others decide on FX hedges and stock trades on business forecasting. These are simply tools to predict into the future - a need felt by mankind from times long past. The believers and the non-believers are in two camps and no amount of argument or debate will get even one person to defect from his camp to the other. These are deep rooted beliefs and both sides are right in their own way. I know almost nothing about these subjects - astrology, palmistry etc - and for that very reason I do not scorn them or hold them in contempt otherwise where do I stand in comparison with those who attacked Galileo.

PS: I do not follow them. My wife does. We live in peaceful and loving co-existence.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

no amount of argument or debate will get even one person to defect from his camp to the other.

Precisely. This debate can go on till infinity with not a single person changing his views.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I know almost nothing about these subjects - astrology, palmistry etc - and for that very reason I do not scorn them or hold them in contempt

This couldn't have been put better.

[msdivy]

Astrologers serve one purpose - fix dates !!

When I need to conduct an event at my home, when do I plan it? Tomorrow, next week, next month? The astrologer will give a short list of 3 or 4 dates, my cognitive load is reduced and I can select the date easily.

When there is a newborn in the home, what do I name the baby? There are 100s of God, how can I select one name without upsetting other Gods? There are 50 alphabets and which one should I select? Again the astrologer comes to my rescue to reduce my load. He will give a short list of 3 or 4 alphabets and might even suggest his favorite Go, to be named after!

***

In current times, people are sticklers for time, down to the last second. When a meeting is scheduled at 6 PM, people around the world meet at that particular hour & minute. Around 100 years back, before the Industrial revolution, normal folks hardly kept track of time, days. One appointed guy, ensured the villagers celebrated their festivals on time, taxes are paid on time. He usually went beyond his call of duty and predicted future. His prediction, based on the educated guess, probability of outcome wouldn't have been much different from the toss of a coin, was revered by the community. As a subsidiary profession, parrot astrology, zodiac signs, palmistry kept normal folks engaged and entertained

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Precisely. This debate can go on till infinity with not a single person changing his views.
This couldn't have been put better.

Thank you AMG power. I only hope the anti-astrology camp does not continue heaping derision on the pro-astrology camp followers. For then it is no longer a discussion to share views [and maybe knowledge] but a slander campaign. We may have your views but no need to scorn the other guy. Alas, I think my style is out of fashion.

[vibbs]

When I was to get married (love marriage, but my wife's parents wanted it to be properly arranged with horoscope matching and all). Showed the Horoscopes to three astrologers, all pretty famous guys at that, and three of them had different opinions.

I hoped that would get my family rid off the astrology menace, but it refuses to go and so do the superstitions very often associated with it.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I only hope the anti-astrology camp does not continue heaping derision on the pro-astrology camp followers.

If you are calling me part of the anti-astrology camp, who is trying heap derision on the post-astrology camp, I have to say you are thoroughly mistaken.

I don't believe in that kind of debates. In fact, it is my duty to stop such debates. I am capable of rational argument without derision, others can do it too.

If somebody says they believe in astrology and don't try to impose that on me, I am cool with it. And I prefer to have scientific temperament while leading my life, I hope the other side is cool with it too.

I replied on this thread only because somebody called astrology a science. As the title itself says, Astrology is something in which you believe or not believe. So it is a matter of faith. It is something you believe, irrespective of evidence.

But when you call it science, you crossover to the other side, where verifiable evidence is mandatory. As Stephen Jay Gould famously said, science and religion or logic and faith are non-overlapping magisteria. You can't take something by faith, and then call it science. They are non-overlapping.

Since many here like what the ancients had to say, let me quote one such ancient guy. The scientific methodology was first defined by Egyptian scientist, Ibn al-Haytham (AD 950-1040), who is hailed as the father of modern optics and experimental physics.

He said (do notice the highlighted parts):

The seeker after truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them, but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration and not the sayings of human beings whose nature is fraught with all kinds of imperfection and deficiency. Thus the duty of the man who investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to make himself an enemy of all that he reads, and, applying his mind to the core and margins of of its content, attack it from every side. he should also suspect himself as he performs his critical examination of it, so that he may avoid falling into either prejudice or leniency.

So if you call something science, you better be ready to provide verifiable evidence. Unlike faith, science doesn't get protection from attacks. If you call something science, it begs to be attacked from every side, just like Ibn al-Haytham said. If you don't want it questioned, don't call it science.

If you call it a faith or belief, I have no interest in questioning it. Faith is not something that can be questioned.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I know almost nothing about these subjects - astrology, palmistry etc - and for that very reason I do not scorn them or hold them in contempt otherwise where do I stand in comparison with those who attacked Galileo.

Interesting example. I better remind everybody here that in this case, Galileo was the science guy who was attacked/tortured by the faith camp.

[roy_libran]

I voted None.

But,

I absolutely believe in all of these, and in all their cousins, for the commercial opportunity they present.

[400notout]

Ooohh this is interesting. Bear with me while I put my views on this. I'll have to write something about myself to give context of why my belief is so.

I have always been the black sheep who didn't do well in academics / career / health. My parents always showed my kundali to astrologers to find what's wrong and what's the solution to it. However my parents never did the same so vehemently in the case of my elder brother who seem to do everything right. Recently, in Dec 2017 my parents got me an amulet given by a "vettela (leaf) baba " after a pooja for my well being. I wear it to respect my parents effort and emotion more than anything else.

After my humble Arts graduation I did a diploma and got a job. I made good impressions wherever I went, but it was usually because of lack of decent competition and my better communication skills. Early in my career I took up an offer which was too big for me. Ever since, it has been one risk over the other. When I began, I expected my endeavour to propel me to global fame. But now after 10 years I'm waiting for my efforts to realise so that I can live debt free.

Various astrologers would say that I had good fortune. That I cannot deny. But I realised, uncertainty and helplessness was the main reason I took to astrology.

Last year my good friend who also dabbles in astrology had given me 2 years to recover from my lows in life. Today one year has passed and frankly speaking I'm in much better position than I was last year and tomorrow looks good too.

Now coming to the methods of astrology, as far as I've understood, it was never about predicting the future. It can only tell what time you are passing through. It's symbolic and not particular

I'll try to put my observations,

There are bodies namely sun, moon and the nine planets

There are 12 houses (not zodiac)

From the net link

The zodiac wheel is based on the sun's apparent yearly rotation about our Earth (along the ecliptic), while the wheel of Houses is based on our Earth's 24-hour rotation about its own axis

The 12 Houses of astrology are symbolic of the all the departments that make up human life.

As per this, during our birth the positions of the bodies in the respective houses depicts our "nature".

Whenever planets change position, for example this our life is affected.

Astrology is basically a calculation of these events. It helps understanding a person's nature in detail and the highs and lows in ones life. If the planets are not in a favourable position, going would be tough, and a lot easier if they are in favourable positions. Mind you, it's not a substitute to hard work. At best, it can provide a psychological relief to people who need to know when their misery would end. For most people it would just be an acknowledgement of their lives.

I had an unpredictable turn in life which has put me back by 4 years, during this period everything went downhill and nothing worked no matter how hard I tried. Compared to today when im getting results with zero input or effort.

So I, at present have given in to the understanding that things happen only when your "time" comes. It's all about surviving your bad times.

To conclude, Astrology, according to me, is a calculation, through which you can get to know yourself better. Given you have a good astrologer.

PS: The astrological bit is just my basic observation, it gets very detailed and interesting if one delves deep.

[Enobarbus]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

There is a fundamental theological question - What is the purpose of life? Why are there living beings on earth? What purpose does presence of life serves to the larger cosmos? What do we eventually gain by understanding things and pursuing scientific studies?

The answer to your last question is the answers to your previous questions.

We have already gained so much by understanding things and scientific studies. We are at a stage where scientific study is its own purpose. When a chance for practical application presents itself, we would be ready with the knowledge. It works the other way round too. We can dig deep into the fonts of knowledge of different branches of science to understand and rationalize.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you AMG power. I only hope the anti-astrology camp does not continue heaping derision on the pro-astrology camp followers. For then it is no longer a discussion to share views [and maybe knowledge] but a slander campaign. We may have your views but no need to scorn the other guy. Alas, I think my style is out of fashion.

You can rest assured Narayan that your style is very much the current fashion in TBHP. Look at this discussion here. Radically opposite views are being presented and discussed without any derision or rancour. No one is trying to convert the other to his or her point of view. People are simply expressing their views.

I think this represents the very best of TBHP as a community!

[deehunk]

Originally Posted by 400notout

I had an unpredictable turn in life which has put me back by 4 years, during this period everything went downhill and nothing worked no matter how hard I tried. Compared to today when im getting results with zero input or effort.

So I, at present have given in to the understanding that things happen only when your "time" comes. It's all about surviving your bad times.

To conclude, Astrology, according to me, is a calculation, through which you can get to know yourself better. Given you have a good astrologer.

I am a strong believer in Astrology, reaching my current position in 10 years is nothing but a miracle. I became an engineering graduate at 26, not because of backlogs but due to some risks I took after passing my 12th exams. I was an over-aged fresher when I got my first job, my fortunes changed after that. I have used astrology as a precautionary measure and it has helped me a lot, again you need a good astrologer.