[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Much like the "Hypothetical" Graviton in Quantum physics? It is not unusual in modern science as well, to assume some constants, particles, even energy and matter that has yet to be discovered, but hypothesized basis assumed characteristics that fit the field equations (and once discovered, it might "prove" be very different from what has been hypothesized; or might even prove to be false!).

As for calculations referenced to sun and moon (and their ecliptic relative to the galactic centre): Try to look at the stars and calculate it yourself with naked eyes and let me know if you can. With all the scientific knowledge we possess today, it is still nigh impossible to decipher relative orbital eccentricities, orbital planes and intersections of different celestial bodies with naked eye observations.

They dint hypothesise something which was later discovered, but they imagined a body based on an optical illusion which was later proved to be non existent. The arbitrary node and other paraphernalia are explanations to the illusion.
And more importantly, when something in science is proven to be false, there is rarely an effort from science not to say that it is False.

Why would I have to observe it all by myself ? Those who observed and documented obviously did not do that alone over many years. And why would my ability to derive that with naked eyes make any difference to the fact that the imaginary nodes are reference points with respect to Sun and Moon.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

They dint hypothesise something which was later discovered, but they imagined a body based on an optical illusion which was later proved to be non existent. The arbitrary node and other paraphernalia are explanations to the illusion.

Where did you find this information? What optical illusion you are talking about? Please explain.

As to the truth or falsification part: there is no evidence to prove that celestial bodies have any effect on humans, and no scientific rationale yet discovered that can explain HOW can life events be affected by external factors. That does not prove, beyond doubt, that there is no relation of life with celestial phenomena OR that celestial events do not affect life at all.

That is proven by logical exclusion - like concept of god. If it exists, there should be evidence which can establish its existence without doubt. Since there is no such evidence, God is non-existent. It (Astrology) is not a science, we all agree to this. Brushing aside all the related aspects of astrology as total sham (mind it, Indian astrology started off as Astronomy) is something that I do not concur with. Astrology started off as documentation of observations over a long period of time and finding out patterns to it, calculating the future repeat of same events (like eclipses, change in climate, periods of high droughts and floods etc).

Scientifically proven to be wrong is something else - like Homeopathy. Hard facts prove that it's a sham.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Where did you find this information? What optical illusion you are talking about? Please explain.

Along with other celestial bodies the early observers from India spotted Rahu and Ketu as celestial bodies. (Astronomy) They also used them in calculations for predictions (Astrology). Scientific astronomy in later years proved that such celestial bodies do not exist, but what seems that bodies are points in space referenced to Sun and Moon. This is what I referred as optical illusion to the people who were observing thousands of years ago.

As to the truth or falsification part: there is no evidence to prove that celestial bodies have any effect on humans, and no scientific rationale yet discovered that can explain HOW can life events be affected by external factors. That does not prove, beyond doubt, that there is no relation of life with celestial phenomena OR that celestial events do not affect life at all.

The proof concept in science does not work in disproving a claim. The onus of proof rests on the person who owns/presents the theory. Science has no doubt at this point on astrology.

That is proven by logical exclusion - like concept of god. If it exists, there should be evidence which can establish its existence without doubt. Since there is no such evidence, God is non-existent. It (Astrology) is not a science, we all agree to this. Brushing aside all the related aspects of astrology as total sham (mind it, Indian astrology started off as Astronomy) is something that I do not concur with. Astrology started off as documentation of observations over a long period of time and finding out patterns to it, calculating the future repeat of same events (like eclipses, change in climate, periods of high droughts and floods etc).

Scientifically proven to be wrong is something else - like Homeopathy. Hard facts prove that it's a sham.

You are mixing Astronomy and Astrology freely here. Calculating the next occurrence of lunar eclipse to plan a night time activity is astronomy. Predicting a date to start wearing a diamond ring based on celestial bodies is astrology. Astronomy is a study of celestial bodies and its documented effects. Documenting of observations is not astrology, it is astronomy. At one point, it branched to the prediction and human life business which became astrology.
Explaining Rahu and Ketu is not important in Astronomy at all, but it is very important in astrology because some foundations are built on that.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

You are mixing Astronomy and Astrology freely here. Calculating the next occurrence of lunar eclipse to plan a night time activity is astronomy. Predicting a date to start wearing a diamond ring based on celestial bodies is astrology. Astronomy is a study of celestial bodies and its documented effects. Documenting of observations is not astrology, it is astronomy. At one point, it branched to the prediction and human life business which became astrology.
Explaining Rahu and Ketu is not important in Astronomy at all, but it is very important in astrology because some foundations are built on that.

I'm not mixing it. It was one and the same at the start. The "predicting the life events" part came later (point in history where Astrology departed from Astronomy).

I am a firm believer in Science and I have zero doubt over the "non-scientific" nature of Astrology as we know it today. I strongly believe the world to be probabilistic rather than deterministic (astrology suggests that it is deterministic). By default I do not believe in Astrological predictions.

However I do believe, everything has an effect on everything else ("spooky interactions at a distance", quantum entanglement, non-locality etc are scientific concepts after-all).

[aah78]

For those who have not watched:
Psychics: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhMGcp9xIhY

The references are mostly American. Psychics go one step beyond astrologers - the "I see dead people" variety.

Believe what you want but watch the video with an open mind.

[Samurai]

It is a common trick, I have mentioned about cold reading couple times before.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Ask her to checkout cold reading. It is the fundamental platform upon which all these stuff works. It is really an amazing art form.

Originally Posted by Samurai

This session is usually followed by some attempt at cold reading. But the Jumadi player and the event spokesman must be really good to nail the cold reading. After some shaky attempt at guessing, Jumadi decided to move on.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

So, I chanced upon the topic of Bhrigu Samhita, supposedly penned by Maharshi Bhrigu, which became the basis of indian Astrology.

I have experienced the guys at work using this "samhita" to predict the future. This was almost 10 years back, no idea what the workflow is like now.

I had gone to one of their centres with a relative. They start by asking you a few questions and eliminating "leaves" which don't match. The only remaining leaf, which is supposed to contain every information about your life, is then recited out in Tamil (I guess, and translated to Hindi).

Now, for my relative, they got the past pretty accurately at that time, and some of their future predictions did turn out to be true as well in the last 10 odd years. Not a perfect hit rate, but average I would say.

What really surprised me though, was how did they manage to get the names of the people bang on - parents, siblings etc. No details were noted down before the visit.

This post of yours brought back the memories, hence sharing. Oh yes, and they tell you about your past birth as well. Who were you, what you did, and what caused you to land up on earth in this birth. Was a pretty fascinating experience for me.

[msdivy]

A political prediction that did not come true - Astrologers predict Yeddyurappa will become Karnataka Chief Minister in a month time (on Feb 4th 2019)

* A pair of astrologers have predicted state BJP chief BS Yeddyurappa will become the chief minister within a month.

* Vidwan Ganesh Hegde and Pavan Joshi claimed they have studied the horoscope of the BJP leader and insist Yeddyurappa will be installed as CM by March 5.

* They said if their prediction fails, they will quit personal consultations.

March 5th has passed. A month, considering 31 days (March 8th) has passed. No change in the CM job.

[gkveda]

Originally Posted by msdivy

March 5th has passed. A month, considering 31 days (March 8th) has passed. No change in the CM job.

People who believe : Attributes the prediction failure to knowledge of Astrologer and still continue believing Astrology

People who don't believe: Believes that they can convince the lot by quoting this failure as example.

Life continues. Argument goes on.

They said if their prediction fails, they will quit personal consultations.

This is like quitting cigarette/smoking. Both (smoking and predicting) have been quit multiple times.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by gkveda

People who believe : Attributes the prediction failure to knowledge of Astrologer and still continue believing Astrology

People who don't believe: Believes that they can convince the lot by quoting this failure as example.

on your comment on human behaviour.

The astrology predictions were made,
1) Without any empirical evidence.
2) Without any logical reasoning.
3) The conclusion was not open to scepticism.
Hence at the onset it didn't have a higher chance than a coin toss.

On that political prediction, buoyed by the astrologers' strong belief & conviction, a very valiant effort was made to make the prediction come true. By a conservative estimate, around 100 crore rupees was spent on resort, travel bills. If the prediction had come true, it would have cost another 300 crores in loyalty-purchase and re-election expenses.

[SmartCat]

It's amazing how astrology's covid-19 timeline matches that of best epidemologists and WHO experts

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

It's amazing how astrology's covid-19 timeline matches that of best epidemologists and WHO experts

I'm beginning to believe that "Untouchability" in India started because of something like the Covid19 in ancient times. Given human nature, the real reasons and rationale were forgotten and this terrible practice that had its basis in pragmatic thinking became another stupid rule with no benefits.

[kozhissery]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

It's amazing how astrology's covid-19 timeline matches that of best epidemologists and WHO experts

Attachment 1984867

Very true, sometimes you can see such coincidences.

Even I got a forward (in WhatsApp as usual) about a prediction by famous astrologer in Kerala (he does appear in one of the famous Malayalam channel which airs it). This is in Malayalam


Ref:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPQ_ctUIODs

Note:
I don't know the authenticity of this video. Mods may delete it if found in-appropriate.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by kozhissery

Very true, sometimes you can see such coincidences.

Even I got a forward (in WhatsApp as usual) about a prediction by famous astrologer in Kerala (he does appear in one of the famous Malayalam channel which airs it). This is in Malayalam.

99.99% astrologers were forecasting peace and prosperity and all the usual things at least on TV. And many others were happily scheduling weddings, thread ceremonies, good dates for starting a business / foreign travel etc without any notion about Covid.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

It's amazing how astrology's covid-19 timeline matches that of best epidemologists and WHO experts

Sep is the 3rd date I am hearing. One astrologer said June 21, 2020 (date of the solar eclipse), another Nov 2020 (before the onset of winter). So 3 astrologers 3 dates. Unfortunately, nobody would hold them accountable for their predictions.

Originally Posted by mvadg

I'm beginning to believe that "Untouchability" in India started because of something like the Covid19 in ancient times. Given human nature, the real reasons and rationale were forgotten and this terrible practice that had its basis in pragmatic thinking became another stupid rule with no benefits.

The knowledge of germs and their disease-causing capability started after the microscope was invented in the 16th century. The study of bacteria started in the 17th century & virus in the 20th century. Before that time, the un-well folks were isolated and they probably healed or died, depending on their immunity, nutrition & the care received. There no concept of bacteria, virus before this time. Diseases existed before this time and were attributed to beliefs rather than the actual cause.

There is a difference between untouchability & social distancing. Somebody gets an infection, they practice social distancing and after cure, they lead a normal life. Untouchability is by birth. However healthy they are, distance is maintained due to their caste.