[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

when a new guy from another part of india joins office do you actually help him out in terms of finding accomodation/good food at reasonable rates etc? Do we really try to talk about a vision of india or try to communicate to other indians around? We always whine about what others are not doing. In civics, I was taught about rights and duties. Let's focus on our duties too before we whine for our rights.

We have to do our bit and in some time we will see the change that we want to see.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Sorry, I am not getting any piece of the pie. Please let me know how you get the piece of the pie. I would also like to eat cake and pie.

Vishnurp99, see, the above comment is India. Almost everyone is like this and we (the educated )claim that we don't get anything of that pie when you darn well know you are eating/munching the whole thing without a care for the majority. We complain about rise in cost of petrol (which BTW has silently risen to Rs. 66.30 here in chennai) and vegetables and coveniently shift the blame to someone else. This is India.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

@tsk1979 Have you or anybody in your family ever brought land? Did you register for the total cost of transaction? or did you register for % of the total transaction cost to save tax?

Haven't you ever brought something without asking for a bill so that tax is avoided?

These are instances of corruption in my book and you are eating a piece of pie here. Just a small example. Few others are getting a bigger piece and some of the other folks might be getting a smaller piece.

I was just trying to say that situation is not as gloomy as this thread portrays if you take a holistic view.

You are taking a simplistic view? What you are not understanding is the type of corruption we have here.
If you buy a flat, and even have all papers in order, you have to pay bribe. you apply for passport, and have everything in order you have to pay bribe.
In many other countries, you pay bribe to do the wrong thing, not right thing.
That said, the examples you are listing is "Tax Evasion". This is not the same as "corruption".
Tax Evasion exists everywhere in the world. This thread is not about tax evasion. Its about corruption. Totally different things.

[vishnurp99]

I agree with you about paying bribe for doing the right thing. However you can get the right thing done at a slower pace by not paying a bribe also. You are paying a bribe for the convenience of quick service and for getting ahead in the queue. The infrastructure/govt services of india is severely strained considering our population. If the govt provides services on a queue basis without any extraneous considerations, there will be a lot of delay and i don't want that to happen to me. That's why i pay a bribe. Ofcourse if the bribe is unreasonable(meaning very high) or the work does not get done I will not hesitate to give that govt servant a piece of my mind and arrange a thrashing if the piece of mind thing doesn't work. unfortunately that's how things work in india. We have to get used to it rather than talking about changing the system.

When more people(say more than 50% of our population) start becoming more enlightened over a period of time the corruption syndrome will change. Please note that i have said enlightened and not educated. They are different things in my opinion.

Coming to tax evasion, sure it's there everywhere. Corruption is also there everywhere. You call it lobbying or working for a fee or campaign donations or whatever. Corruption is there everywhere.

Also is corruption and tax evasion that different really? A govt servant demands bribe from you to make some money on the side. If you want you can fight with him and not pay the bribe but you don't do that because of demands of time. Similarly you make some money on the side when you do tax evasion. The scale of tax evasion(what we call black money) is much more in India than say a US or UK.

Like I have said earlier, all we can do is have sustained interest in policy making at the local and national levels both. Understand the undercurrents and local issues of a place and make sure that the corruption doesn't become too unreasonable. Over a period of time get involved in the system and try to make it better.

The other option is we migrate to America or one of the other western economies and give the responsibility of nation building to somebody else.We become silent citizens of that new country and over a period of time try to blend into that country.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Tax Evasion exists everywhere in the world. This thread is not about tax evasion. Its about corruption. Totally different things.

Thats mere semantics. In this case, tax evasion happens via paying bribe to registrar so he/she keeps mum.

[Newpunter]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

I agree with you about paying bribe for doing the right thing. However you can get the right thing done at a slower pace by not paying a bribe also. You are paying a bribe for the convenience of quick service and for getting ahead in the queue.

Not really true. I had once applied for a certificate in a government office. Everything was in order. But the peon hid the file somewhere and said that he didn't receive the application. What are we common people supposed to do in this case? When he got the bribe, the file suddenly appeared out of no where . This was around 15 years or so back and i was young back then. But the same thing keeps continuing even today.

Regarding your post that everyone receives a part of the pie. I have always paid my taxes( considering that my salary is my only income ) . I always ask for a bill when i buy anything . Whenever a cop stops me, I always pay the fine and get the receipt instead of paying a bribe ( i once paid 400Rs and got the receipt for parking my bike in a no parking zone without seeing the board for 5 min, when other people beside me were getting their bikes released by bribing the cop 50 Rs ) . But it boils my blood when a government employee asks for a bribe to just do his duty, even when everything is in order. Due to people paying them bribes for everything, they have come to expect a bribe to just do what the government is paying them a salary for.

Edit: Tsk was also talking about the same thing when he said i want a piece of the pie. You missed the satire in the post.

[vishnurp99]

if you really want to do it, there are ways to get things done without a bribe. For this you have to be very organized and keep the receipts that you get from offices etc handy. It helps if you have contacts also. Generally there is a tendency to extract more money from people who are not local. Guard against that.

[download2live]

Given the number of scams and the scale of corruption around us, I feel tempted to ask. Is there Justice in this world??
Kalmadi is off the hook (for those who feel he will be persecuted, well dream on)
Raja is off the hook.
Bellary brothers cant be touched.
Flats for war widows taken up by politicians.
IAS officers have crores and crores of money. And kilos of gold.

Lets forget about courts and punishments.
What about God? They say that "We pay for our sins in this life only".
Where? How?
I do not see Kalmadi paying for his deeds. Neither Raja nor IAS Officers.

Every poor child who dies malnourished, isn't a drop of his blood is on the hands of these people who cornered all funds??

Just read about an IAS couple in MP who had 25 flats and 260 crores in cash.
How much blood of innocent lives on their hands??

I have lost faith on Humanity. But on God I still trust.

So how will God make sure that their accounts are settled before they come knocking on his doors??

HOW??

[SILVERWOOD]

Originally Posted by download2live

G

Just read about an IAS couple in MP who had 25 flats and 260 crores in cash.
How much blood of innocent lives on their hands??HOW??

Bhopal: The illegal assets of the IAS-officer couple caught in Madhya Pradesh for corruption allegedly exceed Rs 300 crore.

The Enforcement Directorate has found several violations relating to foreign currency and investments. "This is a mind-blowing figure... hard to believe that officers can raise illegal assets of Rs.300 crore or even more. Several businessmen in the state are struggling for years to keep their empire over the Rs.100 crore mark, but the Joshi couple have really produced a shocker," a senior bureaucrat told IANS.

The officer was reacting to a report of the income-tax department that said in its 7,000 page report to the state government that the 1979 batch IAS couple - Arvind and Tinoo Joshi - have properties, investments and valuables worth at least Rs.300 crore.

Arvind Joshi was in charge of the rehabilitation of victims of the Bhopal gas tragedy.

"The IAS couple's story is unbelievable, but it's hundred fact. They have probably set an example for the country's hundreds of corrupt people holding high posts in state governments and at the centre. I wish no one excels them," an income-tax official said in a lighter vein.

The IAS couple was suspended in February last year when an income-tax raid found a little over Rs.3 crore in cash at their Bhopal residence.

The department recently handed over a comprehensive report to the state government as well as the Lokayukta (ombudsman) in which it listed out the illegal assets it had unearthed during last year's raid.

The report says the couple owned at least two dozen flats in Assam, New Delhi and Bhopal, and have about 400 acres in various districts of Madhya Pradesh, like Sehore, Raisen, Balaghat, Mandla and Umaria.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/bureaucrats...50332-931.html

[MX6]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Funnily, the most honest people I have met are ones who cant read or write in any language.

+1 tp that saar.

What a great revelation.

Yes. Current education system prevalent in India corrupts people. We are all born innocent!

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

Coming to tax evasion, sure it's there everywhere. Corruption is also there everywhere. You call it lobbying or working for a fee or campaign donations or whatever. Corruption is there everywhere.
Also is corruption and tax evasion that different really? A govt servant demands bribe from you to make some money on the side. If you want you can fight with him and not pay the bribe but you don't do that because of demands of time. Similarly you make some money on the side when you do tax evasion. The scale of tax evasion(what we call black money) is much more in India than say a US or UK.

Tax evasion, facilitation costs & corruption are different in their own ways but also interlinked. The main difference that I see is that when I pay any money for facilitating my work/ getting work done I am not looting money that is not meant for me. Consider it as a baksheesh if you please. The problem we have is with the large scale corruption/ scams where a minority of people are cornering the resources earmarked for someone else.
As for what we do about it, do we even vote? If we do, does it even count? A basic question is that if I contest the election as a honest candidate, will I ever win? It requires a lot more effort at a social grassroots level before we can rise to the political level to change all this.
The main problem as I see it is lack of co ordination of efforts. We need to have somebody to lead the effort, else no one will take that step. The question is do we really trust anyone that much?

[shankar.balan]

every morning the stories about corruption in the newspaper makes me sick.
why do we have to work so hard, pay so much to the dirty govt by way of taxes and yet go through this?
even getting a tax refund from the IT Dept is difficult. apparently the tax chap expects a bribe to release money that is rightfully owed by the government to the individual!

[KRRaj]

Even after so many reports especially recently about the scams running into so many lakhs of crores, nothing happens to the perpetrators. They still go scott-free. The Opposition is raising a big hue and cry over swiss bank accounts, what they heck were they doing when they were in power? Nothing's gonna happen and we will be like this only and that is the sad truth.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD

Arvind Joshi was in charge of the rehabilitation of victims of the Bhopal gas tragedy.


The IAS couple was suspended in February last year when an income-tax raid found a little over Rs.3 crore in cash at their Bhopal residence.

Can we at least now change the tone of the bhopal tragedy thread to reflect who has been responsible for the poor people's fate? I believe this is only a part of the money.

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by download2live

Lets forget about courts and punishments.
What about God? They say that "We pay for our sins in this life only".
Where? How?
I do not see Kalmadi paying for his deeds. Neither Raja nor IAS Officers.

Every poor child who dies malnourished, isn't a drop of his blood is on the hands of these people who cornered all funds??

Just read about an IAS couple in MP who had 25 flats and 260 crores in cash.
How much blood of innocent lives on their hands??

I have lost faith on Humanity. But on God I still trust.

So how will God make sure that their accounts are settled before they come knocking on his doors??

HOW??

It does not work that way. Everyone is given a time to mend and repent, when that time is over then He will grip the micreants in such a way that no worldly creation can help them in their misery. E.g Harshad Mehta.

Right now these cash stashers have got the money but lost respect amongst the very people they live amongst. So you choose, whether you want to be called a people cheater and be a millionaire and have people talk crap about you or earn an honest living and be respected where ever you go. More than money people value respect amongst themselves.

Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD

Bhopal: The illegal assets of the IAS-officer couple caught in Madhya Pradesh for corruption allegedly exceed Rs 300 crore.


Arvind Joshi was in charge of the rehabilitation of victims of the Bhopal gas tragedy.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

Can we at least now change the tone of the bhopal tragedy thread to reflect who has been responsible for the poor people's fate? I believe this is only a part of the money.

People say that the American company was let off easy due to the government's impotency, but look, our people have done no less to curb resources meant for the victims. We are no less either.

Originally Posted by KRRaj

Even after so many reports especially recently about the scams running into so many lakhs of crores, nothing happens to the perpetrators. They still go scott-free. The Opposition is raising a big hue and cry over swiss bank accounts, what they heck were they doing when they were in power? Nothing's gonna happen and we will be like this only and that is the sad truth.

The opposition is screaming because of the 60 years they got only 5 years and could not make enough to stash it in the Swiss accounts.
If they would have had the opportunity even they wouldn't have stopped at it either. Point is, no one is a saint. Both are equally bad.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by download2live

So how will God make sure that their accounts are settled before they come knocking on his doors??
HOW??

I think they will be reborn umpteen times as one of these poor people so they go through the same suffering that they inflicted.
I do wonder how shameless these people can be that they are so immune to the sufferings of human beings. One has to only look around to see and wonder where such opulence somes from for people who purportedly serve the aam junta.