Any carbon dating experts?

bigman · 21st July 2009, 21:39

I need some general advice on carbon dating so was wondering if we have any t-bhp experts in this field. I have trawled google but although there are countless sites which explain the process, I have not found any that answer my question.

Basically I need to know how much of an item (a feather in this case) is needed to carbon date it. e.g. all of the feather or can a sample of XXcm by XXcm be used?

Its a long story and a bit of a wild goose chase and I will reveal more later.

Thanks in advance.

khan_sultan · 21st July 2009, 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigman

... all of the feather or can a sample of XXcm by XXcm be used?

Its a long story and a bit of a wild goose chase and I will reveal more later.

Holy God.. I thought I had seen it all here and now this..!!!

BTW, is the feather of same wild goose that you are chasing?

Best of luck buddy.

abhinav.gupta88 · 21st July 2009, 21:46

From what I remember , you would not need all of the feather. You can do with a xx cm by xx cm of it. Though the whole feather won't make matters worse.

I was told about this more than 3 years back when i was in 12th. So i am not sure again.

bigman · 21st July 2009, 22:23

OK here is the story.

1846 (??) The British annex the State of Lahore (Punjab) in conivance with the Kashmir Dogra clan.

In the Lahore treasury is said to be the turban jewel (Kalgi) of the 10th Guru of the Sikhs (referred in this post as the Lahore Kalgi). The Lahore Kalgi is bought for a nominal price by Dalhousie and shipped to England. The item remained in the Dalhousie family and was for a short time loaned to the Victoria & Albert Museum in London. After this the whereabouts of the Lahore Kalgi are not known. No pictures of the Lahore Kalgi exist.

Forward on to a few weeks ago. Some chap from Ludhiana turns up in Amritsar (after hiring an aeroplane in Delhi) with a helmet deocration worn by army officers. He claims it is the same Kalgi as taken from the Lahore treasury. Now me and several others (who are more heavily involved in Sikh arts etc) are highly suspicious. These suspiciouns are further compounded when the item appears to be the same one that used to be in the collection of a UK Sikh (during his lifetime no one took his claims of it being the Lahore kalgi seriously as experts said it was a helmet decoration and he was stopped form putting the item on display in Delhi as its links with the Sikh Guru were dubious to put it mildly).

The same chap from Ludhiana spins a story which tries to bamboozle the masses in Punjab with twists and turns which he can't prove. The item was put on display for a few days until its link to the Sikh Guru Ji were rightly questioned. No pictures of the Lahore Kalgi exist yet this chap has tried to pass his turban decoration off as the Lahore Kalgi based on some dodgy picture he has got from somewhere. There was a picture published of the UK helmet decoration by the then owner where he claimed it was the Kalgi of the 10th Sikh Guru and strangely the story of how it passed from the Dalhousie family to him matches that of the story the Ludhiana chap is spinning.

The guy is reluctant to get it dated, claiming it would all be damaged. I know carbon dating has flaws but I just need someone in the know to tell me how much of a feather would be needed for carbon dating. If it can be done using a sample of a say a cm square then he has nothing to lose.

Another little twist is that items from the collection of the UK guy who owned the helmet decoration are known to have been sold since his death.

sandeepmdas · 21st July 2009, 23:00

I am not a carbon dating expert; I am now a carbon-making expert (my car: Indica DLS)

Perhaps this will help you; Size of sample required:
Radiocarbon Dating Sample Size Requirements | Beta Analytic

bigman · 22nd July 2009, 00:07

sandeepmdas,

Thanks for that, more ammunition to prove this guy has little credibility and his story is absolute rubbish.

bigman · 23rd July 2009, 17:47

No need to carbon date now. Looks like a journalist has had the nouse to take this story to the next level.

Confirms what a few of us thought and even the name of the collector is the same as we were postulating about.

Quote:

CHANDIGARH: The mystery over the authenticity of the tenth Sikh Guru’s Kalgi (plume) seems to have deepened as the UK-based family that is
supposed to have donated it to the SGPC has stated that it had at no point claimed that the plume was that of Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru.

‘‘At no point have we claimed that the Kalgi is that of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. We do believe that it dates from the 1800s (Guru Gobind Singh died in 1708), although we have no documentary support for this and we are not experts in the field,’’ said Atam Singh Sandhu, elder son of late Chanan Singh Chan, an eminent UK-based collector of Sikh heritage.

In an interview to TOI, the family has also alleged that the Kalgi was taken to India without informing them, after it was handed over to one of the SGPC members who wanted to get a chemical test done on it in Cambridge, UK.

Guru?s ?kalgi?: Row rages over its authenticity - India - NEWS - The Times of India

bigman · 27th July 2009, 19:53

Quick update. The SGPC have now rejected the helmet decoration the guy was passing off as the kalgi of 10th Sikh Guru Ji.

Got to give some dues to some people. Respect to S. Tarlochan Singh Ji (Rajya Sabha member) who was one of the people we were in contact with over the last week or so and likewise to SP Singh (National Museum Director, Delhi) and Dalmegh Singh of the SGPC.

21st July 2009, 21:39	#1
bigman Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NA Posts: 1,224 Thanked: 93 Times	Any carbon dating experts? I need some general advice on carbon dating so was wondering if we have any t-bhp experts in this field. I have trawled google but although there are countless sites which explain the process, I have not found any that answer my question. Basically I need to know how much of an item (a feather in this case) is needed to carbon date it. e.g. all of the feather or can a sample of XXcm by XXcm be used? Its a long story and a bit of a wild goose chase and I will reveal more later. Thanks in advance.
	() Thanks

21st July 2009, 21:46	#3
abhinav.gupta88 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Delhi , India Posts: 4,092 Thanked: 325 Times View My Garage	From what I remember , you would not need all of the feather. You can do with a xx cm by xx cm of it. Though the whole feather won't make matters worse. I was told about this more than 3 years back when i was in 12th. So i am not sure again.
	() Thanks

21st July 2009, 22:23	#4
bigman Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NA Posts: 1,224 Thanked: 93 Times	OK here is the story. 1846 (??) The British annex the State of Lahore (Punjab) in conivance with the Kashmir Dogra clan. In the Lahore treasury is said to be the turban jewel (Kalgi) of the 10th Guru of the Sikhs (referred in this post as the Lahore Kalgi). The Lahore Kalgi is bought for a nominal price by Dalhousie and shipped to England. The item remained in the Dalhousie family and was for a short time loaned to the Victoria & Albert Museum in London. After this the whereabouts of the Lahore Kalgi are not known. No pictures of the Lahore Kalgi exist. Forward on to a few weeks ago. Some chap from Ludhiana turns up in Amritsar (after hiring an aeroplane in Delhi) with a helmet deocration worn by army officers. He claims it is the same Kalgi as taken from the Lahore treasury. Now me and several others (who are more heavily involved in Sikh arts etc) are highly suspicious. These suspiciouns are further compounded when the item appears to be the same one that used to be in the collection of a UK Sikh (during his lifetime no one took his claims of it being the Lahore kalgi seriously as experts said it was a helmet decoration and he was stopped form putting the item on display in Delhi as its links with the Sikh Guru were dubious to put it mildly). The same chap from Ludhiana spins a story which tries to bamboozle the masses in Punjab with twists and turns which he can't prove. The item was put on display for a few days until its link to the Sikh Guru Ji were rightly questioned. No pictures of the Lahore Kalgi exist yet this chap has tried to pass his turban decoration off as the Lahore Kalgi based on some dodgy picture he has got from somewhere. There was a picture published of the UK helmet decoration by the then owner where he claimed it was the Kalgi of the 10th Sikh Guru and strangely the story of how it passed from the Dalhousie family to him matches that of the story the Ludhiana chap is spinning. The guy is reluctant to get it dated, claiming it would all be damaged. I know carbon dating has flaws but I just need someone in the know to tell me how much of a feather would be needed for carbon dating. If it can be done using a sample of a say a cm square then he has nothing to lose. Another little twist is that items from the collection of the UK guy who owned the helmet decoration are known to have been sold since his death. Last edited by bigman : 21st July 2009 at 22:25.
	() Thanks

21st July 2009, 23:00	#5
sandeepmdas Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Varkala Posts: 1,536 Thanked: 2,489 Times	I am not a carbon dating expert; I am now a carbon-making expert (my car: Indica DLS) Perhaps this will help you; Size of sample required: Radiocarbon Dating Sample Size Requirements \| Beta Analytic
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 00:07	#6
bigman Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NA Posts: 1,224 Thanked: 93 Times	sandeepmdas, Thanks for that, more ammunition to prove this guy has little credibility and his story is absolute rubbish.
	() Thanks

27th July 2009, 19:53	#8
bigman Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NA Posts: 1,224 Thanked: 93 Times	Quick update. The SGPC have now rejected the helmet decoration the guy was passing off as the kalgi of 10th Sikh Guru Ji. Got to give some dues to some people. Respect to S. Tarlochan Singh Ji (Rajya Sabha member) who was one of the people we were in contact with over the last week or so and likewise to SP Singh (National Museum Director, Delhi) and Dalmegh Singh of the SGPC.
	() Thanks