Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao
(Post 3952382)
I was about to opine on the other side of this same coin. Lots of companies used to have data jockeys under the guise of Analytics groups/departments, where the majority of them were doing nothing but manual data collection/collation/presentation for lack of a centralized solution. |
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal
(Post 3952401)
When you say we have engineers good at coding, it sounds very unrealistic. |
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal
(Post 3952401)
We have engineers who can be PROGRAMMERS. We do not have many engineers who can be DEVELOPERS. I cant think of any other way to articulate this out. |
Originally Posted by Samurai
(Post 3952380)
Why do you assume that?:) While I was busy, many have answered this question. Looks like you have not seen how many jobs have been killed by cloud and SaaS. I also provide SaaS over the cloud, so I am acutely aware of what is happening. ========== There is also this mass delusion that is the result of this low skill IT revolution that lasted 20+ years. People expect pay according to their years of experience, rather than the value they bring to the organization. I don't even understand where this is coming from. I often get emails from experienced IT folks saying "I make so much now, expect 20% hike if you hire me". Meanwhile I don't see much in their resume even to offer half that amount. It prompted me to write this article last year. |
In addition, these middle aged professionals are the relics of the IT revolution that didn't need any hard skill. So they barely learned anything that could be useful in the future. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952729)
My friend, I can sense your pain since you seem to find it tough to recruit "appropriately skilled" talent at a reasonable price point. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952729)
However, they adapted/will adapt to the changing situation. That's evolution. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952729)
You have pointed out opportunities in Data Analytics. Maybe that's the next big thing, maybe not, but if it takes off and if a company requires folks with those skillsets, then the market will adapt and evolve and provide people with those skills. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952729)
This is generalization and is your perception speaking. I don't think its fair to state that a whole bunch of middle aged IT professionals learnt barely anything that could be useful in the future. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952729)
Companies needed them for a particular role requiring specific skills and they performed that role for years. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952729)
People with a knack of managing people and inspiring them to perform are always at a premium. |
Originally Posted by Samurai
(Post 3952410)
I think we are getting into semantics, how do you differentiate between them? Like this? http://www.skorks.com/2010/03/the-di...ter-scientist/ |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952729)
This is generalization and is your perception speaking. I don't think its fair to state that a whole bunch of middle aged IT professionals learnt barely anything that could be useful in the future. Companies needed them for a particular role requiring specific skills and they performed that role for years. Perhaps those skills are obsolete now, but people management skills are required not just in the IT industry. People with a knack of managing people and inspiring them to perform are always at a premium. |
Originally Posted by Samurai
(Post 3952834)
Frankly, I don't bother. I only hire freshers who have no skill and then train them in a way colleges should have. I teach them how to think and adapt to any new situation. Not everybody manages to learn this, even the 1/3 that do, go on to be highly productive and creative. This has really worked out me. |
Not everybody can adapt, that too is part of evolution, survival of the fittest. People who went through many hardships are generally more capable of adapting. But people who were recruited from campus, enjoyed big salaries from day one, and for the next decade or two are rarely capable of adapting. They simply don't have the practice. I know ample examples of both cases. |
Why do you keep thinking it is merely my perception? :) I am at the age where all my peers, friends, lots of juniors I mentored over decades are middle aged IT professionals. It is my observation, not perception. |
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal
(Post 3952839)
What is the big deal about people management in IT ? People management is required only where people are required in large numbers. There are a whole lot of people in IT industry with decades of experience who do not add any value to the ecosystem. They have not updated themselves with evolving technologies and because they have never been trained on the basics of engineering ( not in college where education is bad, not in their jobs where they just managed people) or the basics of sales, they wont have any role to play in future. This is the case with the majority. There are exceptionally capable people in small numbers in any category though. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952874)
I think it is your perception since I have also observed that these folks have done pretty well for themselves, they've invested their earnings wisely and appear to be well prepared for any upsets that technology might throw their way. Since, my observation contradicts your observation, I call them perceptions. Don't be too quick in judging others. As explained above, it is quite possible that they have some skills which their employer valued and hence they were paid the salaries they got. Just because you think they are unskilled, does not make them unskilled. |
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal
(Post 3952899)
Okay, on what is that judging too quick based on ? I am not pre-judging, I am judging based on facts. The mere fact that India does not have many good product companies despite the fact that India produces one of the highest number of S/W engineers is proof of the idea that our engineers of yesterday and today do not have the skill. They have skills which their employer valued, true. But the value on the skill was only because of boom period. |
Its not that I am "thinking" they are unskilled. I am judging they are are "unskilled" in this engineering field. Whether they are skilled in amassing wealth, or buying real estate when its cheap or set for an early retirement is pointless in this thread. The thread is about technical skills, not about the welfare or well being of the unskilled. |
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal
(Post 3952839)
A developer on the other hand( just how I thought about it, not about the article) can move over technologies quickly and always has a grip on the bigger picture. These are people who can grasp technology changes fast and often "develop" new stuff. When "developers" show the way, "programmers" can write the code. Its the design of the systems that separates developers from programmers. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952874)
Maybe you should tie up with the colleges in your city and offer internships /after college courses so that the students learn those skills while still in college and don't waste more time after 4 years of useless education which teaches them no skills. |
Originally Posted by Samurai
(Post 3189592)
Among them only one had the making of an engineer. I suspect she did all the work of researching, learning and configuring the setup. Rest were only going through the motion, and looked eager to forget all this once their certificate is given. They seemed to be tolerating technology instead of getting exciting by it. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952874)
I think it is your perception since I have also observed that these folks have done pretty well for themselves, they've invested their earnings wisely and appear to be well prepared for any upsets that technology might throw their way. Since, my observation contradicts your observation, I call them perceptions. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3952955)
India is a developing country and most people need to work for their daily bread. So, they take up jobs with who ever is willing to employ them. Even if I am a good software engineer and have come up with innovative software projects in college, I need to leave all that and focus on whatever my employer tells me to do. To compare the number of software products produced by the developed countries with that in India is not sensible. However, I am very happy to note that of late, thanks to the easy availability of funding/better economic conditions, more and more people are now choosing to startup their own ventures, and foray into unexplored waters. Given a little time, I'm hopeful that Indian software products will also do well. You are judging that they are unskilled. But who are you to pass judgement? The fact that companies are employing them for so many years and paying them hefty salaries suggests that they value the skills these employees possess, even if you disagree. |
Originally Posted by Samurai
(Post 3952971)
Your definition is exactly the opposite of what is considered the norm, at least in USA. Bill Gates was a programmer, not developer. http://www.britannica.com/biography/Bill-Gates http://www.dodgycoder.net/2012/09/q-...ogrammers.html http://www.itworld.com/article/28235...ogrammers.html I became a programmer in 1989, and I have always considered myself a programmer rather than developer. Programmers are self driven, innovative and creative techies who are obsessed with design, architecture and performance. Developers are more concerned with customer needs, deadlines, process compliance, SOWs, NCRs, etc. Naturally, programmers mostly stick with software product companies and developers are mostly in software service companies. I spent only 10% of my career in services and it drove me mad. Programmers work best alone or in very small teams. Large teams usually are full of developers, and rarely any programmer. Programmers are the kind of people who build SaaS/PaaS/IaaS platforms. Developers are the kind of people who customise it for end users. |
Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal
(Post 3952977)
I thought we were talking about middle level managers who have zero technical skills and fat pay cheques. I dont know how daily bread is difficult to people with great real estate portfolio as pointed out before. |
Originally Posted by Samurai I became a programmer in 1989, and I have always considered myself a programmer rather than developer. Programmers are self driven, innovative and creative techies who are obsessed with design, architecture and performance. Developers are more concerned with customer needs, deadlines, process compliance, SOWs, NCRs, etc. Naturally, programmers mostly stick with software product companies and developers are mostly in software service companies. I spent only 10% of my career in services and it drove me mad. Programmers work best alone or in very small teams. Large teams usually are full of developers, and rarely any programmer. Programmers are the kind of people who build SaaS/PaaS/IaaS platforms. Developers are the kind of people who customise it for end users. |
Originally Posted by Lalvaz
(Post 3953034)
Your definitions are not a defined standard. Many programmers also call themselves as Software developers, especially when working as part of larger teams on large software projects. |
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