[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Samurai

About 11 years after my graduation, I took up MBA at an UK university. That was the first time I was exposed to real academic learning. The exams were tough as hell and mostly in essay and case study format. They gave marks only if you demonstrate clear understanding of the topic. Reproducing the material by memory would get you a big zero. And there was no choice, you had to answer every question. It was so refreshing, to see an education system that actually forced you to learn.

An excellent note. I now describe my own experience in the UK.

Having done an MSc from IITK I was in the UK for my PhD. Academically the MSC was far above the UK graduation, so I sailed through the lectures, as did a Belgian colleague. In the comprehensive we had to write an essay and then face the board. Given my training here, whenever there was a question I will quickly write and solve the equations on the board. Then would come the pat comment, 'Now that we have done the maths let us discuss the physics'. Was quite a revelation to me! This why I still remember this after 38 years!

I came across this from my cousin a couple of years ago:

Lecture : An art of transferring information from the notes of the lecturer to the notes of the students without passing through "the minds of either".

Most apt for our educational system.

[tortoiseNhare]

Originally Posted by vina

I had semester system in my college, and 12 years out of college I still remember quite a few things taught in the very first year (i.e. 16 year old stuff) even though quite a bit of that is not what I do for a living.

I must ask you what prevented you from pursuing the stuff in which you "would develop and interest and start having some grasp" after the exams were done? And what level of interest was it that you vomited it in the exam and forgot it like a bad dish.

Well I don't claim to have an Einstein like IQ and nor do I have any photographic memory. The tangent of my learning curve, like those of a majority, ascends very slowly at the beginning and after some time the ascent becomes steeper. That curve during the first six months of learning of topics like Algebraic Geometry, Spectral Theory, Differential Topology etc looked pretty much like that of e^x in the negative real axis. In the immediate next semester one had to brace for Galois Theory, Abstract Harmonic Analysis et al.

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by condor

but Sir, even in Cricket, a century is still a 100 years. The answer the girl gave was with a measure of 10 years.

NDA also ?

It is the IPL effect - 30s have replaced 100s.

[greenhorn]

a very interesting reply someone posted to the above open letter
An Open Letter To Prospective Indian Employer « Random Thoughts of a Demented Mind

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

a very interesting reply someone posted to the above open letter
An Open Letter To Prospective Indian Employer « Random Thoughts of a Demented Mind

Both sides calling on each other's short coming. It might look like catch-22 situation, but it is not. People have choice.

I once worked for an employer (TCS) who failed 4 out those 5 points, that is they did pay on time, although it was well below industry standard. Before that I had worked for another company that failed on all points. But I used these two companies build experience and exposure. Then I moved out of the rat race into a startup that matched my requirement.

Unless you are good, you can't demand the employer to be good. Both have to bring something to the table. If you bring nothing, you are most likely to end up with an employer who fails on most of those 5 points. So, instead of demanding, offer something first. And don't offer it to companies that are not known to be good. It is easy to find out, talk to your seniors or friends who are already in that company.

BTW, I absolutely loved the reply from one of the entrepreneurs (Siddharth Goyal). And I quote:

Originally Posted by Siddharth Goyal

The entire discussion here is to be one sided as obviously the ones who would read in numbers are on the “employee” side and the “employer” side would be really under represented.

Secondly, you are forgetting the fact the employer was once an employee, so has a way to claim he understands that side, but again the employee will never understand what goes on the employer side. I have not taken any side,as yet, but being a very very young entrepreneur so very very close to being an employee and as an employer too, I find the above arguments very very naive and very microscopic.

The above arguments are drawn by taking very very sporadic incidences of non – payments etc. Treating employees as humans – this treatments are never the design of the employer but actually a fellow employee. The employer has taken enough care to provide you with Medical Insurance, Transport allowance, House rent compensations, Medical expense reimbursements , why you just see the CASH I HAND and CTC ? What makes your cash in hand – the very very human components.

One thing you guys are confusing – in most cases the employer is also an employee and the cycle goes on till it boils down to the entrepreneur – who can be a craftsman entrepreneur ( man in the same business of skill he has ) , a lala (pure play trader & only playing with trade & market dynamics) or say a partner setup ( consulting companies).

Why you mistake that the one treating you inhumanly or the HR with an employer ? He is also an employee coming from the same breed as you, just 3~4 years ahead of you ?

My company is a very small startup and we are people without bounds. totally free – no attendance, no leave counts, no fixed timing, no bonds, no clauses, we give the entire committed bonuses because we believe if you are not worth 100% of your bonus, you are not worthy of staying. I am not markting my company, but pointing that no one starts with being inhuman. When we actually start taking **** from people, we will start to introduce counter measures, and these counter measures will be by employee for employees. Trust me the entrepreneur or the ultimate employer never dictates these. One of my friends in a very highly placed HR consultancy said “most disturbing & distracting activity people find at their work place when they find a colleague who is always on social networks” these are by fellow employees and thus the HR will be bound to make a call on restricting it – either by a stick ( restricting access) or by a carrot ( providing perks for better results). Now which one should he choose ? Whichever achieves the goal – eventually boiling down to the maturity of the people. Unfortunately,in India, at mass Sticks work better than carrot. This is not a comment or a judgement just a fact.

The above points are very very meaningless cribs in front of the entire beauty an entrepreneur creates more so underlines the fact the very limited practical understanding/exposure. No where in the world just college degrees get you jobs, skills and experience does. Just compare the average experience of an Indian Graduate vs. any graduate in any other country. They sell soda water from year 10 of their lives.

I am not justifying anything here, i am just trying to bring the perspective on an employer. The above mail very trivializes the entire point the other guy was trying to make.

and last of my personal comment : sorry, you (Fresh graduates) never built a brand. You only joined companies once it was a brand. How many of you work join unknown companies / startups from campus and stick around till its a brand ?

[Samurai]

Hmm, some day. Today there were 5 candidates. And 3 of them got the seminar question "Which technology had the greatest impact on 20th century". All of them got the century wrong. All 3 thought we live in 20th century and it is from 2000 to 2100.

But I'll spare you the details and focus on one special one.

Me: Which technology did you choose?
She: I feel it is the hand held #&$^%$.
Me: Huh, a what?
She: It is a handheld #&$^%$

<I simply couldn't make out what she was saying>

Me: A handheld...um.. never mind. This was in the 20th century?
She: Yes.
Me: When was the 20th century?
She: From 2000.
Me: Until when?
She: Um... don't know.
Me: How many years in a century?
She: ...um..... 100?
Me: Correct, now that you know the beginning and the duration, can you deduce the end?
She: ...um...2100?
Me: Ok, let's settle for that. This handheld thing, how do you know about it?
She: It was my project.
Me: Oh, can you name a better known technology instead.
She: Nano technology. It is having lot of impact on this century.
Me: Ok, can you name some examples.
She: Nano car...
Me: I see. Is this some kind of miniaturized car?
She: yeah.

Now, my mind went back to an old news of a nanotechnology car. Here is the link: Scientists build world's first single-molecule car

But I couldn't think of asking any questions on it, so I gave up.

After she left the room, I saw the other panelists literally falling out of the seat in laughter.

Me: What is so funny?
He: She meant Tata Nano car!
Me:

[greenhorn]

A hilarious retort
An Open Letter Comic to Indian Companies | PaGaLGuY.com - India's biggest website for MBA in India, International MBA, CAT, XAT, SNAP, MAT

[sgiitk]

All I will say is, thank God the number of engineering colleges is finally declining. However, the desire to make my child an engineer continues. Today our education system does not teach any (horse) sense, just cramming! Samurai what you got is not totally unexpected. I have sat through enough project interviews so as to become immune to these jokers. Even higher up once I was hiring a Sr Sc Officer (AP scale). One candidate with aPhD from a major national university, who claimed to have spent ten years on Electron Microscopy was unaware of the vacuum in the column of a typical electron microscope (~10^-5 to 10^-6 torr) . I had put this question trying to help him, since he did not know what Kikuchi lines were!

[huntrz]

Originally Posted by Samurai

But I'll spare you the details and focus on one special one.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Today our education system does not teach any (horse) sense, just cramming! Samurai what you got is not totally unexpected. I have sat through enough project interviews so as.....

Looking down upon others and blaming the "System" is often the best way to keep one's self esteem and self worth high. Let me tell you that being an interviewer is always an easier job then being an interviewee. One can always find something to laugh at and say "he doesn't even know that?" and lay a claim for superiority. I have seen this happening at various levels in life wherever there is a guy asking questions and there is a guy answering. Job Interview is just one of these situations. I can list many such questions whose answers you will end fumbling with, though it is supposed to be very obvious, especially for the "learned" folks.
Do you know "All" of your fundamental rights as per the Indian constitution?
Do you know the preamble of Indian Constitution?
Should you be doomed if you don't know the answers for this without looking for help?

Employable is the guy who can learn and not the one who is done with learning and claims to know everything.

Where the topic of this thread sounds like there is some serious enlightening discussion going on but here there is nothing other than blind and indiscriminate bashing the Indian Education System and its products.
The two of you leading the charge who were the product of same system before attaining "enlightenment", are employable, and I suppose, well placed to make a difference and I am quite sure you are doing your bit. We will be glad to hear about that and it will be more relevant to the thread's topic.

[alpha1]

Frankly, the Indian industry is getting what it deserves (in the name of fresh grads), and the grads are doing exactly what the industry wants from freshers.

This is the reason why there is a huge disparity (in income, job profile, growth within the organization) between a fresher joining Microsoft and a fresher joining generic software service firm, as a generalization.

Please keep in mind that educational qualification are just cut-off criteria. This is well known in organizations, and hence, they take separate interviews and tests.

This is also the reason why many freshers opt for MBA, because they know the employers are not going to qualify them for the jobs they wish to seek out for.


As I said, the industry and grads are in balance. Innovation, ingenuity, intelligence etc are all good group discussion topics - however in Indian industry, in general there is very less need for it. What most industries require is a donkey worker profile.
And the cramming junta (= fresh grads) caters the exact needs.

Yes, there are few positions that really require those qualities; well if your organization cannot find such people from within, its really a sad case of mis-management of human resource and lack of grooming.


No one gets selected as CEO straight out from the college. So why do you expect the similar levels of skills?


***

Of course I assume everyone here knows about the Gaussian distribution.
What this thread is about:
the rest 90% of the Gaussian distribution should become like the top 10%. (scroll up to my point about Google/MS vs generic software service firm)
I am sorry, to bust your bubble - but if that happens, it will not remain gaussian distribution. And is no longer a natural phenomena.

[sgiitk]

@alpha1; I am in agreement with most of what you say. Let us remember the origin of our modern education system - setup by a colonial govt to provide them clerks. We are still doing the same.

This is also the reason why many freshers opt for MBA, because they know the employers are not going to qualify them for the jobs they wish to seek out for.

Most of the top Management Institutions demand about two (now often three) years experience.

Also, more and more CEOs are in their 40's or early 50's. My generation is losing out!

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

A hilarious retort
An Open Letter Comic to Indian Companies | PaGaLGuY.com - India's biggest website for MBA in India, International MBA, CAT, XAT, SNAP, MAT

As I already mentioned in post #230, they have a choice. All the scenarios mentioned there apply to big companies. Only big companies can sustain and survive despite such mental paralysis at work. But people want prestige of big company, safety of big company, but not the working condition of big company. You want recognition, join a startup, take some risks, then you will get what you want, because you can make it happen. I am talking from experience here. In 1991 I joined a startup as a programmer, I became chief programmer in 5 months and I was conducting Interviews. But I didn't get paid for 10 months, and worked 12-16 hours quite regularly.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

once I was hiring a Sr Sc Officer (AP scale). One candidate with aPhD from a major national university, who claimed to have spent ten years on Electron Microscopy was unaware of the vacuum in the column of a typical electron microscope (~10^-5 to 10^-6 torr) . I had put this question trying to help him, since he did not know what Kikuchi lines were!

Hiring experienced folks is a totally different ball game. I simply don't know how to go about it. It simply scares the hell out of me.

Originally Posted by huntrz

Looking down upon others and blaming the "System" is often the best way to keep one's self esteem and self worth high.

Nice psycho-analysis. But sgiitk and I are well beyond that point that we need such external stimulants to keep our self esteem high. The symptom you describe is usually true with new interviewers.

Originally Posted by huntrz

Let me tell you that being an interviewer is always an easier job then being an interviewee. One can always find something to laugh at and say "he doesn't even know that?" and lay a claim for superiority.

Obviously, you know very little about how proper interviews are done. Is this how it is done in your company? Then I really pity your company.

I have mentioned it before in this thread before:

Originally Posted by Samurai

Idea of an interview/written-test is not see who is superior. I am sure freshers have much better handle on discrete mathematics than me. Being from electronics branch, I have never studied discrete mathematics in college. All I like to see is whether the fresher is able to apply his/her knowledge to solving problems.

If you are still not sure what that means, I can explain further. I only ask questions from their resume, and never bother with stupid puzzles or ask them to move Mt.Fuji.

For example, I ask them to explain their final semester project. The purpose and the technical implementation. Obviously, they are supposed to know more about that than me. Just by listening to their description with an experienced ear, I can learn a lot about them. Then I ask them what are their strong skills, and then I ask questions only within those self-confessed skills.

Me: What is your strongest language?
He: C++
Me: Name your favorite features within C++
He: STL
Me: Alright, tell me why?

You see how this works? I ask questions on what the candidates claims to know.

Originally Posted by huntrz

I have seen this happening at various levels in life wherever there is a guy asking questions and there is a guy answering. Job Interview is just one of these situations. I can list many such questions whose answers you will end fumbling with, though it is supposed to be very obvious, especially for the "learned" folks.
Do you know "All" of your fundamental rights as per the Indian constitution?
Do you know the preamble of Indian Constitution?

Looks like you have been hurt by too many bad interviewers. Relax, the entire world is not like that. Interviewers who try to have a pissing contest with the candidate are a curse. I have experienced such people myself in my youth.

I have been conducting interviews for 20 years now. But there is a difference since the last 15 years. The difference is I hire people who will work in my team. That means I have a vested interest. In large companies, interviewer often never gets to meet the selected candidate later.

Originally Posted by huntrz

Employable is the guy who can learn and not the one who is done with learning and claims to know everything.

Finally we agree. So let me ask you a question. How to find out whether a person is capable of learning? There are many way of doing that, and experienced interviewers know how to do that.

Originally Posted by huntrz

Where the topic of this thread sounds like there is some serious enlightening discussion going on but here there is nothing other than blind and indiscriminate bashing the Indian Education System and its products.

Really? Calling spade a spade is blind and indiscriminate?

When a first class engineering graduate doesn't know how many years make a century or which century we live in, you think it is perfectly acceptable? My 11 year old son knew the answer.

When a 22 year old person with 18-19 years of schooling doesn't pickup the meaning of the word century in that entire period, one can safely conclude that he/she is not capable of learning.

Originally Posted by huntrz

The two of you leading the charge who were the product of same system before attaining "enlightenment", are employable, and I suppose, well placed to make a difference and I am quite sure you are doing your bit. We will be glad to hear about that and it will be more relevant to the thread's topic.

Sure. I have been running a software product development company in a rural area. Have created quite a few jobs in a region where there are very few IT jobs. I did work for large IT companies in the 90s for six years. That experience taught me how not run a software company. I hire only freshers. Since I only hire for immediate requirements, I can't do campus recruitment. Therefore, I mostly get to pick from people who couldn't get through campus recruitment for various reasons. May be that explains why I get high volume of low-quality candidates. Visitors to my office always wonder how I manage to find talent in such a place. But I have learned to see beyond mark-sheets and resume and really assess the person by their capability. I basically pick people capable of learning, and then turn them into top-notch engineers over the next few years. Many BHPians have visited my office over the past years and seen it themselves.

Here is one: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post1618825

Originally Posted by alpha1

Frankly, the Indian industry is getting what it deserves (in the name of fresh grads), and the grads are doing exactly what the industry wants from freshers.

In case of large companies, you are right.

Originally Posted by alpha1

This is the reason why there is a huge disparity (in income, job profile, growth within the organization) between a fresher joining Microsoft and a fresher joining generic software service firm, as a generalization.

True.

Originally Posted by alpha1

Please keep in mind that educational qualification are just cut-off criteria. This is well known in organizations, and hence, they take separate interviews and tests.

True again.

Originally Posted by alpha1

however in Indian industry, in general there is very less need for it. What most industries require is a donkey worker profile.
And the cramming junta (= fresh grads) caters the exact needs.

Agree. But my company can't afford donkeys since the job profile demands lots of intelligence & creativity. I often have 1-2 years experience guys doing extensive research work on technologies like VOIP or speech recognition.

Originally Posted by alpha1

Yes, there are few positions that really require those qualities; well if your organization cannot find such people from within, its really a sad case of mis-management of human resource and lack of grooming.

In a tiny product company like mine, every engineer needs those qualities. Not sure how to find fresh engineers from within. They have to come from a college. Once I hire them, I know how to groom them.

Originally Posted by alpha1

No one gets selected as CEO straight out from the college. So why do you expect the similar levels of skills?

Knowing the meaning of century is a CEO level skill now?

Originally Posted by alpha1

the rest 90% of the Gaussian distribution should become like the top 10%. (scroll up to my point about Google/MS vs generic software service firm)
I am sorry, to bust your bubble - but if that happens, it will not remain gaussian distribution. And is no longer a natural phenomena.

I don't mind if the Gaussian distribution is a bell curve. But it currently looks like Qutb Minar.

[huntrz]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Nice psycho-analysis. But sgiitk and I are well beyond that point that we need such external stimulants to keep our self esteem high. ...

I have been conducting interviews for 20 years now. But there is a difference since the last 15 years.

Correct, self pity and self worthlessness is a phenomenon that occur in the later part of the professional life.

Originally Posted by Samurai

The difference is I hire people who will work in my team. That means I have a vested interest. In large companies, interviewer often never gets to meet the selected candidate later.

Obviously, you know very little about how proper interviews are done. Is this how it is done in your company? Then I really pity your company.

This shows how much you know about recruitment despite being 20yrs in industry. I have never seen such a thing happening even in campus recruitment and I work for one of the largest product companies. One is interviewed by the team one is going to work for. Will it be rude to ask you to save some pity for yourself?

Originally Posted by Samurai

Interviewers who try to have a pissing contest with the candidate are a curse.

From your posts since the beginning of the thread and examples you have been quoting, I am sorry to say but it appears that you have made them your role models.

Originally Posted by Samurai

When a first class engineering graduate doesn't know how many years make a century or which century we live in, you think it is perfectly acceptable? My 11 year old son knew the answer.

Its certainly not acceptable. Some wanted to be engineers some are forced into it. But you seem to be getting just too many of the wrong ones. But that's not the point, I just pray that your son doesn't pick up this attitude of deriving pleasure only by pointing the negatives in others.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by huntrz

Correct, self pity and self worthlessness is a phenomenon that occur in the later part of the professional life.

You are thinking about typical managers of large companies. I ain't one. I am living dangerously since 14 years without the advantage of any safety net.

Originally Posted by huntrz

This shows how much you know about recruitment despite being 20yrs in industry. I have never seen such a thing happening even in campus recruitment and I work for one of the largest product companies. Will it be rude to ask you to save some pity for yourself?

I have never met people I selected in TCS/HP, unless when I was recruiting for my own team. Why do I need pity, you are one complaining about bad interviewers.

Originally Posted by huntrz

From your posts since the beginning of the thread and examples you have been quoting, I am sorry to say but it appears that you have made them your role models.

I never insult candidates. In fact I keep the interviews very cordial. Even when they don't know about century, I don't correct them. I just let them say whatever they want, with no urge to educate them. That way I can learn a lot about the person.

Originally Posted by huntrz

Some wanted to be engineers some are forced into it. But you seem to be getting just too many of the wrong ones.

I fully aware of that. Yes, I get a lot of them since I mostly interview campus test rejectees. But I do manage to find some gems among them.

Originally Posted by huntrz

But that's not the point, I just pray that your son doesn't pick up this attitude of deriving pleasure only by pointing the negatives in others.

Thanks for your prayer.

[navpreet318]

Interesting discussion going on here. I am actually surprised how Huntrz is unrelentingly forcing his opinion here. There are good people. There are bad people. I have had quite a bit of experience with interviewers myself and have actually had the courage to give them a piece of my head then and there. But then I have had awesome interviewers as well. Best of all at IITK, IITR, MDI gurgaon, Hydel Constructions, Anand Automotive Group etc.

Just as Samurai stated here, these interviewers have done just that. Asked questions from what I knew and what I was willing to know more about. Infact in some of the interviews I have had quite animated discussions with the interviewers. All of us were smiles after the stimulating discussion. This is how interviews are conducted. You see the candidate and if you like him you take him else you say thank you. There is absolutely no need of any arguements. Being a mechanical engineer no interviewer has ever asked me anything about IT industry or anything non mechanical or not related to my work at a hydroelectric power project.

The basis of any person to succeed in life is learning ability. If he/she is able to learn despite the deficiencies in the Indian education system, he or she will succeed. This has to be a lifelong trait. And it has to involve no ego. One can learn much more from a company back end helper than the CEO.

Coming to pointing out the deficiencies, this has to be done. When are we going to learn about ourselves? Someone has to point out the deficiencies! We can't just live in a bubble that we are the be all know all! Yes there is a way to do it but it has to be done. Some people have a bad way of pointing it out but one has to pick up the learning point out of it. You have to pick up your deficiency and move on without paying attention to how it was told to you. Improve on your deficiencies.

We can't stay stuck up with the bad behavior of one person. We have to move on.

And Samurai Saan...From what you have described, its good credible work you are doing! Especially hiring from people who are left out from Campus recruitment. I know how it feels because I was one too. But life has taken a different turn now. I am super happy with where I am and life wouldn't have been so great had I been recruited through campus.

Huntrz: Chill man. Take a couple of days off from work and enjoy life.