[anilisanil]

Consider the early Stone Age when man used to hunt his food. A single man would make a good food for any animal in the jungle rather than making a food out of it. It must have become clearly evident for the early man that real strength lies in numbers.

So in those times when humans were scarcely populated, it was but natural that they lived in small groups. Now any group without a leader would be a chaos, so there would always had been a leader of these ‘tribes’, if I may. Now this tribal leader would always want to expand his tribe, because safety lies in numbers. A bigger hunt group would mean that a greater probability of finding food. So he would obviously try to bring different tribes under a single umbrella.

Now, for example, consider that there was an extremely good tribal lord of sorts. Who is very benevolent and had all fancy ideas of populism that struck a chord or two with the people. Obviously he would become their super hero and he would be having a lot of following. So in those days where there was no communication technology or media, the word about the greatness of the tribal lord would be spread by inscriptions on stones or by making the tribal lord’s statues or something like that.

One should also be considering that there should be certain order in the tribal group that should be set, so that the group does not collapse. This would be important more and more in case of bigger groups. Moreover, humans always need to believe that they are in control of everything. They would not like to think that they are exposed to nature; they would like to think that everything is under control, they needed insurance against probability. They needed faith!

Order and faith go hand in hand. A group that has faith that everything is under control would have an order. And anything that causes chaos could be solved if faith were to be there. Now how do you instill faith and order into the society? You need to advertise, you need a model! And who better than the tribal lord who become a super hero? And hence the human interpretation of god and religion were formed!

A thousand years down the line Shivaji maharaj would be god of valor, Gandhiji would be god of peace, AR Rahman would be god of music. I suspect Himesh would become the Devil that produces bad noises!

P.S: This is completely my interpretation and I might be wrong.

[sathyaprakash]

MX 6 > I pity for the kandavar who have become dumb when seeing the god may be they should try a different GOD with a different mantras to please the god & get back their speech.

[SilentEngine]

I don't believe in existence of god, the kind who answers the prayers, controls our daily actions etc, nor do i believe in those who consider themselves as agents of god.

What i believe is that the concept of god and religion is a creation of man to instill some kind of order in society. If the society is mature enough, there is no need for a hypothetical entity to control the society.

Also in present world, religion has become a business both in large scale and small scale. Without god, religions will have no place in the world, so there are enough vested interests who want people to keep believing in their definition of god.

[MX6]

@Anil.
I have to read it a couple of times again to make out things. Suddenly you are talking like KamalHassan! But it's a real worthy read. Guess, this calls for a drive to Bhimbetka caves that houses Mesolithic cave paintings!

@Sathyaprakash.
Pity is too big a term! And I'm surprised were Mantra fits in to the scheme of thing! For all I know, it's all vibrations. Part of the cosmic vibrations.

@SilentEngine. I liked your point here! That religion has become a commodity. And your point "their definition of god", is bang on target. Now we need to define what or who is god.

Then we can restart this thread, do you believe in the existence of god.


@Anil. Ancient civilizations worshiped the natural elements. Sun was the primary god for almost all the civilizations. While we called it Surya, the Egyptians called it Ra. The incas celebrated Inti Raymi, which is the festival of the sun god. The vedas don't say anything about gods. It says about how to live!
Hinduism then had the fables which made it interesting to read and assimilate and keep people from not breaking away and living any which way they want. Every religion outlined the cardinal sins. Be it the 7 deadly sins of Christianity or the Panchama Paathaka of hinduism, religion had to take the role of moral police to ensure man doesn't slip.

As they say - "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 1:7) - Psalm 111:10

p.s. I know what I put here would be more confusing than what you've put up there

[anilisanil]

Regarding the ancient civilizations worshiping natural elements, it was more out of fear. Man in principle would hate to leave anything to probability, in fact like Scott Adams said Probability is God, it is the only thing that fits with the definition of God (omni potent and omni present and one who decides fate) back then sun setting and sun rising, lightning, rains everything was beyond one's control and hence to over come the fear they started worshiping the natural elements. And this worshiping might have spread.

Vedas (for that matter any holy book) are generally guidelines on how to live, but try teaching them without fear of God? It's tough. I think it is fear (or the lack of it now a days) that is the main culprit.

Take for example the current scenario, the concept of religion has been diluted to wishing and if wishes are fulfilled pay back the God (doesn't that sound funny?, does God require you to pay him back?) Whatever happened to the values one has to follow now that brings me to the concept of Fredrick Nietzsche's concept of Super Man which believes that man is a transition between monkey and Super Man. It is so evident that humans in general have lost general fear towards living a principled life, there is no one medium that teaches the general public the way to live which means killing the God.

This perspective slowly leads to the belief that nothing has any inherent importance (which I guess has already is happening) and slowly towards a thought that life has no importance (suicide bombers etc.).


God as the way it is being propagated is making people think that He is a wish fulfiller, which is wrong. God does not need you to pray Him day in and day out. He does not punish you if you do a wrong, neither does he change His mind if you make a special offering. The only remaining good thing about the religion is fasting and exercising by walking around the places of worship.

How I wish God was there and punished instantly everyone who erred

[MX6]

Originally Posted by anilisanil

Vedas (for that matter any holy book) are generally guidelines on how to live, but try teaching them without fear of God? It's tough.

There's nothing holy about the vedas. And you don't need the fear of god to teach vedas. There's no reference to any god there.

And did I see Neitzsche? Man, you being a movie buff, I'd suggest you the movie A Fish Called Wanda. It's a riot especially with my favourite actor kevin kline, mouthing lines of Neitzsche!

[humyum]

I neither believe in god, nor religion, nor in anything to do with there being a supreme creator bla bla. If there was a GOD there would be no Darfur Genocide, There would not have been 2 World Wars with millions dead, There would no Hitler, There would be no Famine anywhere, There would be no Genocide's and there would only be peace and happiness.

People come up with explanations like "They must have done something horrible in their past lives hence they are paying the price, you should be happy for your life being perfect". I hate these kind of people too, I don't want to be SELISH and HAPPY when people around are dying for one decent meal. Everyone should have everything or none of us should have anything and THIS IS NOT HAPPENING, SO I don't believe in any concept of GOD.

My mom is a believer and makes us do pooja of a new car, computer etc etc we buy, but my dad and me are total Atheists. If a GOD needs coconuts,prayers, praises and N number of things to return you back with happiness and wants of life there is no one more selfish then him IMO

Religion is the cause of conflict everywhere on the planet and one day its going to lead to everyone of us fighting to annihilate this very earth we have been so cherishing. Check out the war's going on in this world. 99% of them are 'religion vs religion' wars.

On a lighter note I ll post a funny article I wrote about this very topic on my blog. I am not advertising it as its my personal blog and I don't get anything even if half the earth reads it

Link---> War of the Worlds: Drag Me To Hell !!

[anilisanil]

Originally Posted by MX6

There's nothing holy about the vedas. And you don't need the fear of god to teach vedas. There's no reference to any god there.

And did I see Neitzsche? Man, you being a movie buff, I'd suggest you the movie A Fish Called Wanda. It's a riot especially with my favourite actor kevin kline, mouthing lines of Neitzsche!

I disagree with the evitability of fear on teaching something, it is tough to be principled, while one may teach vedas to someone you really need either extreme conscience or fear of someone to follow the teachings. As someone says common sense (and hence conscience) is not so common.

Yeah I did watch a fish call wanda, it is one funny movie it tickled my bones to death!

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by MX6

Now we need to define what or who is god.

Then we can restart this thread, do you believe in the existence of god.

There is no god, hence not proved

Like it happens in the movie 'gods must be crazy', everything that is not easily understood or comprehensible is attributed to god.

[Gansan]

Eric Von Daniken may be a crackpot and over the top most times, but I think his hypothesis was correct.

[unoczar]

For all of you -

Everyone who is confused, will know the answer to that question when they die!

PAKKA!

And to those who are sure about the question... well, All the best!

[prasadee]

Originally Posted by pypkmsrikanth

Let me narrate two incidents.

You have a solution for the misery of all the parents who have lost their kids. You have every right to have your own belief system, but some critical thinking would not hurt.

Originally Posted by anilisanil

Regarding the ancient civilizations worshiping natural elements, it was more out of fear.
Vedas (for that matter any holy book) are generally guidelines on how to live, but try teaching them without fear of God? It's tough. I think it is fear (or the lack of it now a days) that is the main culprit.

Most of your sentiments seem like that of a religious moderate. Not believing in rituals and worshiping is the first step towards believing in secular humanism, leading to be an agnostic.

Ancient civilizations even believed in sacrificing pregnant women to the river to prevent floods, they believed in the caste system. We certainly are not sacrificing women, and living life as seen by scholars who walked the earth thousands of years ago. Each and everyone on this forum has access to more scientific facts than any of the scholars who wrote the vedas. (ignoring the mastery of the language, and artistic talent)

We still believe in the sickening caste system, and laws specific to religion, but this can only be changed by moderates and agnostics, not by Ram Sena, Shiv Sena, or other religious goondas.

[PatienceWins]

Originally Posted by unoczar

For all of you -

Everyone who is confused, will know the answer to that question when they die!

PAKKA!

But it will be late by then and there is no coming back!! It is human being's duty to find out the purpose of this life.

I believe in Islam. Allah is the only god and there is nobody worthy of worship except him. This life is nothing but a test for the hereafter. I do not want to prolong this discussion or go into the details as religious discussions are not allowed in the forum. Will be happy to discuss whenever we meet in person.

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

If it ain't working for someone, doesn't mean it don't exist.

Originally Posted by vinaydas

If you cant see something it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist
example

Absolutely. I can't see air. That doesn't mean it don't exist. He has made me and taken care of me when I was small through parents and everything else and when I get a little smarter I denounce His existance how convenient and thankless.
Transistion to this earthly life is painful and the transition to the other life after this one is also painful.

Originally Posted by Klub Class

Rules of the believer:

"Every good things that come to you is the grace of GOD
Every Bad things are from the Devil."

A Believer believes in good and bad destiny and is thankfull for both. 'Har haal mein shukar' Both good and bad from Him. The created can never cause any harm not cause any good.

Originally Posted by unoczar

For all of you -

Everyone who is confused, will know the answer to that question when they die!

PAKKA!

And to those who are sure about the question... well, All the best!

When we were in the mother's womb and if we could understand worldly speech, and if a scholor explained to us that when you come to this world and see huge buildings and aeroplanes and people taking from thousands of miles with each other via mobile phones, we would have said "Dude, I can bearly move here, what crap are you talking about of some hypothetical world? "

When I come to this world I see that there were indeed such stuff I was told about. And Now there when I am told about meeting the creator after this life I say what the crap! There is no such stuff as creator or afterlife. everything is human made nonsense.

Just as a baby born cannot go back to this mother's womb after he is born the same way no one can come back to this world from his grave to mend things after 'seeing' them in person and say now I believe. No one has ever come back, but we have been warned enough. This is the best way I can explain. Ohh I am open to ridicule, all saints were. A non entity like Pervez can make lesser difference.

[Judemayne]

Sorry Moderators but now we are getting down to -"My Daddy is stronger then yours syndrome" I strongly feel that we should not have started this topic because we are not mature enough to "discuss".
In The Army-Polictics, Religion and Women were a strict -No! No! Rightly so because we had only one Religion-"Brotherhood"
Regards,

Colonel J H Mayne