[prince_pervez]

I am sorry Colonel but please point out a few posts which suggest that "your God is greater than mine" mentality. I have gone through pages and not member has said to the same effect. If you want to shut this thread regardless then thats a different issue. But let the members interested "express" their opinion. If you don't like the topic you always have the option to not open the thread.

[muni]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

I am sorry Colonel but please point out a few posts which suggest that "your God is greater than mine" mentality. I have gone through pages and not member has said to the same effect. If you want to shut this thread regardless then thats a different issue. But let the members interested "express" their opinion. If you don't like the topic you always have the option to not open the thread.

Even if you equate god with something you cannot see like air in your previous post, there are some things you are not looking at with a neutral perspective.

There are a lot of children whose parents abandoned or did not raise them properly. There are a lot of good people dying just because they were born in a war torn country ( Ex: Pakistan, Iraq etc). There are children who die young even if their parents were good and well behaved ( we counter it saying that it was their bad karma). I understand that things were taken care of for you and you want to feel indebted to that. The positive sentiment is good. You are calling it God thats it.

If god were there, I am sure these things would not be the way it was.
Many of us have been injected with thoughts about religion and god to levels where we fail to see the world beyond it.

We are too scared to utter anything or question it fearing that something bad might happen or we will be made to look like outcastes.

Having said that there is/are a purpose(s) why Gods and religions need to be present if one were to think rationally. I understand its significance and respect that thought. The oldest scriptures known to man do not talk about god as such. Without believing in God i can be the best human being possible who would be beneficial to others which is the very purpose of what God and religion signifies.

If you need order and to be civil in society and to live peacefully( relative term), so that you can enjoy life, you need God and religion in general. The relevance of it for every person will/may vary from 0 to infinity.

We have evolved so much as living organisms now that a sudden snapsot to see how complex things are around us makes us think/ believe that there must have been some external forces responsible for that and we have named that god.

We have used this strong sentiment to create the word God and many religions.

[JVH]

Until 23, I was in a confused state. Father is a strict devotee but Mother is not. So, it was a mixed upbringing. Likewise with the company of friends. One fine day, headed to Delhi for some University work and stayed with my Uncle who happens to be a freelance artist. He is more of an outlaw in the family with freeflow (read out of the box) and some outrageous thinking. On a certain picnic day with him and the family, I just happened to mutter the word 'God' in front of him. He turned around and looked at me as if I've committed a sin. I remember the conversation which was crudely along the following lines

Him - What did you say? God?
Me - Yes
Him - Cut the crap, there is no God. Don't believe in all the nonsense...
Me - (Shocked) Why do you say so?
Him - Who told you about God? Teachers? Parents? Friends? How do they know? Have they seen or experienced anything remotely? Its a hogwash
Me – How can you be so confident? I’m sure you are not concluding the judgement just like that without some strong backup?
Him – (Laughs) I can’t believe that you as a grownup have succumbed to the age hold hypocrisy. Its very simple yaar. Man lives in constant fear. He is always insecured. Insecured about his job, his family, his career and what not. He’s not matured enough to walk through the phases of life without depending on somebody. He wants to believe in something, someone. And thus throughout the history of mankind, through this insecurity and the need to believe in something/someone, the image of God was created. It’s taken various forms depending on the religion. Religion again, I’m sure you are aware is a brainchild of Mankind. Its again for security. My brotherhood, my country, my religion blah blah blah…what do you think they do? They all limit and restrict your thoughts amidst the false sense of security, don’t they? And is Man ever secure? Is he ever free from all the bad things in the world by believing in God, religion, sect or whatever? Realize this fast man and live a free world without bonding with anyone/anything. Remember – Man was born free, but everywhere he’s bound in chains.

I’m sure many here will be shocked to read this as I was then. This conversation remained with me forever and led me to dig deep into understanding atheism. I narrated this conversation to my ex-girlfriend and she being a follower of J.K. Krishnamurthi and being an atheist was not surprised at all. She said you will find an extension of your uncle’s thoughts into the texts of one Mr. Krishnamurthi. Began reading him and the confusion lead to more clarity, even to the extent of conviction.

All I can say is that it takes a complex and advanced state of mind to realize and understand whatever is happening to us right from Birth to Death including the belief in God. At this point of time, it is very difficult for me to believe in God.

P.S – Related to the topic, one can read up a little bit on Mr. Krishnamurthi. Not only the belief in God is explained by him but almost all the philosophical aspects related to phases and emotions of Life and death are beautifully explained.

P.P.S – My experience in Idol worship was cut down in a very similar fashion to Samurai in Tirupathi. Me and my friend were robbed by the locals, cheated by the Railway police and just about escaped from a small stampede. A very bad experience to say the least.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by JVH

Me – How can you be so confident? I’m sure you are not concluding the judgement just like that without some strong backup?
Him – (Laughs) I can’t believe that you as a grownup have succumbed to the age hold hypocrisy. Its very simple yaar. Man lives in constant fear. He is always insecured. Insecured about his job, his family, his career and what not. He’s not matured enough to walk through the phases of life without depending on somebody. He wants to believe in something, someone. And thus throughout the history of mankind, through this insecurity and the need to believe in something/someone, the image of God was created. It’s taken various forms depending on the religion. Religion again, I’m sure you are aware is a brainchild of Mankind. Its again for security. My brotherhood, my country, my religion blah blah blah…what do you think they do? They all limit and restrict your thoughts amidst the false sense of security, don’t they? And is Man ever secure? Is he ever free from all the bad things in the world by believing in God, religion, sect or whatever? Realize this fast man and live a free world without bonding with anyone/anything. Remember – Man was born free, but everywhere he’s bound in chains.

THIS is the reason why I say:
God is Man's best creation.

It allows the timid to survive, albeit giving you a false hope.

Just think about it.

There is a group of 100 ppl of lesser intelligence, resilience, agility etc (any attribute for survival in wild).
You are in charge.

You are wise and intelligent.
How do you give them hope?

How do you give them a way of life - you know they are totally disorganized, they think of themselves - and this thinking only about self leads to destruction of the community. (check the Prisoner's dilemma in Game theory)

You have to preserve this community - because ultimately every living being's immediate purpose in life is to create and ensure the survival of the progeny, the next gen.


If I was that wise person.
I would instill a fear of God in those ppl.
Create a regulated way of life as defined in religion.


In fact, just by studying different religions, their basis and rules, you come to know what was the prevalent problem in that era.

The reason why Hinduism is like this, is because it was created during the extreme prosperous ancient age of India - in the river plains of Indus-Ganges.
The other aspect of this religion was born again in exremely properours river plains of Krishna godavari Caurvery.

The reason why Islam has its own characteristics is because of the intense hostility it had to face from the tribals in Arabia, as well as the pre-existing religions of Jews and Christians.

The reason why Sikhism has its points, is because it came out of certain conditions prevailing at the time with autocratic and tyranny of the late Mughal rule era (Aurangzeb etc)


All have their single motto:
Ensure the survival of the community (based on the conditions prevailing).

Which is another reason why I say that some of hte rules mentioned have lost theuir significance, since you don't face those adverse conditions NOW.



However, I believe that Humans SHOULD believe in God and religion, simply because most of Humans are not capable enough to understand the good and bad of everyone.
Ppl just don't have the foresight to see what their actions will lead to.

Till then, let the god and religion be their guiding force.
The intelligent, anyway, realize this by the time they are ending their teenage.
Thus, unshackling themselves from all these limits.

[muni]

Originally Posted by alpha1

THIS is the reason why I say:
God is Man's best creation.
However, I believe that Humans SHOULD believe in God and religion, simply because most of Humans are not capable enough to understand the good and bad of everyone.
Ppl just don't have the foresight to see what their actions will lead to.

Till then, let the god and religion be their guiding force.
The intelligent, anyway, realize this by the time they are ending their teenage.
Thus, unshackling themselves from all these limits.

Good set of points and well summarised. Agree totally.

What worries me is that most people who are well educated also fall victims to this.The poll results is an indicator. I would be more happy if more educated people realise why God and religion exists than the blind fear and belief they have.

[PatienceWins]

The discussion has been very matured and all of us respect the fact that each one of us have the right to follow our beliefs. I do not see any reason to close this thread - we have not gone out of the topic either.

Originally Posted by muni

Having said that there is/are a purpose(s) why Gods and religions need to be present if one were to think rationally. I understand its significance and respect that thought. The oldest scriptures known to man do not talk about god as such. Without believing in God i can be the best human being possible who would be beneficial to others which is the very purpose of what God and religion signifies.

Let me bring another perspective to it. Look at the way our universe functions and think if it can exist by itself. If you come to a conclusion that there is a god who has created everything and maintains it,

Who understands us better, the creator or the creation?
Who is in the best position to define our purpose and how we should live - the creator or the creation?

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Absolutely. I can't see air. That doesn't mean it don't exist.

That is not a correct comparison. We cannot see air because we don't have a vision which can see the air molecules. But we CAN PROVE that air exists by a variety of ways.
Same cannot be said of god though.

[kphilip]

Yes i do belive strongly God Exist and there is a lot of incidents which proves they are all Gods plan..

[arunkk]

Nice discussion here. My opinion as expressed in the poll is that God is in our own mind. Yes I do believe in God and my reason for believing is in the very nature that we live in. Just see the delicate balance in everything that we see around us. Can anybody ever explain the phenomenon called Life in purely scientific terms? A life that sustains itself, reproduces and moves on consuming the natural resources which is inturn gets completely dissolved to the nature. Has science reached anywhere near creating a life on its own. Life is there in humans, animals, trees and everywhere in our nature and this Life is what I call as God.

Now saying this I totally agree to many people here that some intelligent people understood this and found that it is hard to explain and so created the concept of God as a man and the whole concept of religion. I think its easier to just accept God and follow it than to understand what God actually is.

[KumaravelS]

Originally Posted by alpha1

There is a group of 100 ppl of lesser intelligence, resilience, agility etc (any attribute for survival in wild).
You are in charge.

You are wise and intelligent.
How do you give them hope?

If I was that wise person.
I would instill a fear of God in those ppl.
Create a regulated way of life as defined in religion.

Perfect reason/alibi for conman.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

Absolutely. I can't see air. That doesn't mean it don't exist. He has made me and taken care of me when I was small through parents and everything else and when I get a little smarter I denounce His existance how convenient and thankless.
Transistion to this earthly life is painful and the transition to the other life after this one is also painful.


A Believer believes in good and bad destiny and is thankfull for both. 'Har haal mein shukar' Both good and bad from Him. The created can never cause any harm not cause any good.



When we were in the mother's womb and if we could understand worldly speech, and if a scholor explained to us that when you come to this world and see huge buildings and aeroplanes and people taking from thousands of miles with each other via mobile phones, we would have said "Dude, I can bearly move here, what crap are you talking about of some hypothetical world? "

When I come to this world I see that there were indeed such stuff I was told about. And Now there when I am told about meeting the creator after this life I say what the crap! There is no such stuff as creator or afterlife. everything is human made nonsense.

Just as a baby born cannot go back to this mother's womb after he is born the same way no one can come back to this world from his grave to mend things after 'seeing' them in person and say now I believe. No one has ever come back, but we have been warned enough. This is the best way I can explain. Ohh I am open to ridicule, all saints were. A non entity like Pervez can make lesser difference.

Parents have taken care of you when you were small. Don't decredit their effort by saying it's 'GODS' doing. They did everything and anything for us and only THEM.

I in no measure can figure out if he is so nice and just and has all the superman superpowers HOW CAN HE NOT STOP all the wrongs in the world? Thousands getting killed in wars, famine, genocide and what not ? Where are all his powers and justness ?

Like i said before If someone who is so believed and worshipped can't be just to everyone, he deserves no recognition IMO

Just because you or me or Ambani has got everything in life does not make him nice. It just makes us selfish. Either everyone is happy or no one. No selective happiness.

and BTW it was minus 8 here before a month and I could see Air

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by KumaravelS

Perfect reason/alibi for conman.

Agreed, and unfortunately that's what happens when you try to use the formula valid for only 1000s of ppl on a group of millions of ppl.

Single person gets powerful.
Power corrupts.

Most ppl are in any case followers, so they will follow whatever you say.
This corrupt person can (and usually does) con everyone.

But the basic principle was for the good of everyone (good=whatever was considered good at THAT time) - and validated and tested for that small group of followers thousand of years ago.


Lets take your modern era.
Who is responsible to safety and security of everyone? (Law and order).
Police, and armed forces.

What stops them from taking over the reigns completely, and subject the common civilian (including the politicos) to their rule by tyranny?

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by humyum

Parents have taken care of you when you were small. Don't decredit their effort by saying it's 'GODS' doing. They did everything and anything for us and only THEM.

I in no measure can figure out if he is so nice and just and has all the superman superpowers HOW CAN HE NOT STOP all the wrongs in the world? Thousands getting killed in wars, famine, genocide and what not ? Where are all his powers and justness ?

Like i said before If someone who is so believed and worshipped can't be just to everyone, he deserves no recognition IMO

Just because you or me or Ambani has got everything in life does not make him nice. It just makes us selfish. Either everyone is happy or no one. No selective happiness.

and BTW it was minus 8 here before a month and I could see Air

A true believer in god, will reply by saying:
Its god way of testing things.
God is providing you with tempting paths, and seeing if you would stick to your resolve etc and blah ...

Second line of reasoning can be its god's way of tempering,measuring you - Sona aag mein tap ke kundan banta hai... sorts.

Third line of reasoning provided can be - everyone pay's their dues. Whether here or up there.
Those ppl have payed it here on earth, because they must've sinned somewhere, someplace (yeah you bet, the person had loosies, and thus couldn't resist crapping near the holy place - and thus invoked the wrath of gods).
Those who didn't get a "chance" will do so in hell (where they will be placed in a pool of everyone's loosies).

###

The trouble is you cannot reason with anyone who places belief on blind trust.

###
Another peculiar thing anyone noticed?
Man feels that whenever he places himself in discomfort or pain, he is doing something "pure" and this will bring him closer to god.

Like walking barefoot up a steep hill, to reach a mandir. (Surprisingly, all mandirs which are prominent, are "coincidentally" not easily accessible)
Like fasting.
Like abstaining from copulation.
Like keeping some abnormal tuft of hair long.
Like piercing body with stuff

... and the list goes on.

Funny huh?
Man is born to be a masochist!

[RajaTaurus]

God is personification of the motivation or the driving force humans need to move on in life. The 'Trust' is what lets the mind go past unknown things in life, thus nullifying the constant 'fear' of the 'bad will happen' and belief of the 'good will happen'. Psychologically such motivating drivers are essential in human behavior.
Now you may ask what does an Atheist do? Even an Atheist 'trusts' there is no specific power that controls the world and beyond, but he would substitute it with Nature. He may not worship Nature, but he trusts that events happen due to Nature. He trusts than 'good and/or bad things happen due to nature' and moves on.
Now, what about other living beings? What do they do for such driving force? Well, they don't need any driving force, as they don't 'think' about the 'past' nor 'future'. Their needs are primitive and basically driven by hunger and death. They don't have to 'fear' about 'bad will happen' and take cover nor 'pray' for 'good to happen'.
Its only Humans needs this motivating driving force and he devised this thing and called called "God". It may be one, it may have a Million manifestations. It is the 'trust' that humans needs for motivation so that he moves on in life.
This 'trust' in itself has done wonders to the person who practices it 100% from the bottom of this heart. It is just bringing out the True power and energy of the person, which is normally subdued by the beliefs and disbeliefs he accumulates over a period of years. And he thinks God helped him to do it. He himself is capable of doing it, but all the 'trust' does is, to clear the haze and bring out the real power in him.

[KumaravelS]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Lets take your modern era.
Who is responsible to safety and security of everyone? (Law and order).
Police, and armed forces.

What stops them from taking over the reigns completely, and subject the common civilian (including the politicos) to their rule by tyranny?

If something is completely outsourced without quality check and control, then the consumer would be on the mercy of the outsourcing agency/company.

What if a conman is in control of the outsourcing agency/company in this setup?