Team-BHP - Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

Actually looking forward to this discussion on a forum like team-bhp. I can relate to you especially from Middle East connection you had. I was working in UAE Govt project until my last working day last month end. My end users from the client side who are mostly Indian expats discuss with me during lunch breaks on how to send their kids to USA and whether it is worth it. I think I am qualified to answer this from my personal point of view as my preliminary education was in Nigeria, research in engineering from Govt engineering college in India with a career in USA and my son pursuing academic career after getting PhD in one of top 5 universities in USA in niche area of CS-AI-NLP at a very young age.

When I relocated from USA to India with my son who had his preliminary education in USA, it was a big challenge to get him educated in 10+2 in Indian school. I hired an education counsellor from Stanford background in India who does a scientific study regarding the aptitude of each individual student and gives a realistic advice. I found this very useful and worth it as parents have always a biased view on their kids and tend to take a wrong decision depending on the society and peer pressures ignoring the ground reality.

In my son’s case, things worked out as planned with my experience as I was also in the academic line for a long time before jumping to IT. Some of my colleagues who followed me were not very successful with their kids and ended up in a very costly financial blunder. I conducted an international conference on engineering education 40 years back in my engineering college days with IIT Directors and VCs from important universities attending the same.The present IIT Madras Director recently commented that students with core degrees in engineering are not pursuing their core areas which is a huge wastage of resources invested by Govt. This was pointed by visionaries 40 years back also but nothing has been done for resolving the issue.

Education in USA especially the top 20 universities is very costly and it is impossible to get any kind of aid for Indian passport holders. The Middle East parents have some advantage when needing to pay the tuition fees in USD. If given an opportunity, one should write SAT, AP exams and go to USA at UG level in a good university. This correct route has become an exception and the most often taken route by Indian students is go at a graduate level after pursuing an engineering degree in India.

I personally feel that majority of Indian engineering schools don't impart good UG education from research point of view. Only few handful of students get an opportunity to study CS in research institutions like IIT Bombay etc. All the rest non CS students end up pursuing careers in investment banking, pursue IT opportunities and go after a MS in CS in one of thousands of schools in USA . India badly needs core civil, mechanical and electrical engineers to develop its infrastructure right now but nobody cares because of poor salaries in such careers.

I asked my son on how to choose a correct school in USA as per a particular individual’s requirement with so many confusing rankings given on internet. He says that the most authentic one is given below:

https://csrankings.org/

At the end of day, my 2 cents is education in USA especially in top 20 engineering schools in USA is very tough and one goes through extreme stress due to peer pressure from very hard working students who are coming from all over the world as toppers from their respective countries. Be prepared for a dedicated and committed extreme hard work for 5 years post your Indian 10+2 and the rest after that will be a cake walk in career. In case of Graduate studies, do not go to USA to complete MS just for the sake of doing it as a path to a job in some university not in top 100 rankings.It is not worth the time and effort.

Interesting video on the 'skills wars' - an analogy to the 'trade wars' that's going on.

This is a topic that has been sliced and diced multiple times in this thread - is it fair for developed countries to benefit from skilled workers - many of whom were skilled using taxpayer money of developing countries?

This is a dicey topic to say the least, what might be fair from a national perspective might not be fair from the aspect of personal freedom. There is also the question as to the capability of the sending nation to sufficiently employ the skilled worker to their full potential - a serious problem we are seeing in India (and even rich EU Mediterranean countries) as just because the skilled worker stays back wouldn't make them as productive taking environmental factors into account while the sending country does mostly benefit from remittances (which is a double-edged sword). The issue with the question of fairness is also the fact that some of these workers do return to their home country who were actually educated using scholarships from developed countries and working there for a couple of years - effectively working as a reverse brain drain (as is the case with many of my friends).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pynh...omicsExplained

Quote:

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez (Post 5599718)

This, like every other ranking system, has serious flaws. For instance, on that page, Harvard comes in at 33. Even if MIT steals all their glory, I promise you Harvard is not 33rd in the US when it comes to CS programs.

All rankings are flawed in one way or other. There is nothing to be contested here. This is the best of the worst out there. It is like an essential evil. There is also a perception that for EB1 visa (also popularly called Einstein VISA) also looks for google scholar citations and let me make my point clear here that there is nothing to be contested if somebody gets EB1 visa with 0 google scholar citations). Without rankings, how would student choose the college if he is offered in multiple colleges. Rankings play a huge role in the lives of many families who take a final decision of relocation costing a huge money. Hence the student needs to rely on some rankings system. Coming to a
respectable institution like Harvard which is usually in top 20 in other ranking systems but it is 33 here as quoted by you. Harvard is a great school for non CS programs as per my personal opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UD17 (Post 5588008)

Just read this news in economic time: USA H1B visa holder can now work in Canada as well.
Quote from the post: ''Canada has launched a new open work permit for H-1B visa holders in the United States, making it easier for these workers to work and study in the country.
.....
I guess this a good news for people with h1B visa, with another option to settle or engage in job.

Here's something that I have noticed, and would love to hear from others on this topic: Among the large H1 impacted IT crowd that has moved to Canada from the Trump era onwards, a big percentage (I am inclined to say almost 80%) are extremely dissatisfied to have made this move. And the reasons are pretty obvious: the tech sector provides much higher salaries in the US, with either similar or less living costs compared to Canada (add to it the structural problems with Canadian economy discussed earlier).

Most tech workers lack the perspective that the only other option for them would have been India, which of course they will avoid by any means possible (not saying it's right or wrong, just the way it is).

Quote:

Originally Posted by avisidhu (Post 5614499)

Most tech workers lack the perspective that the only other option for them would have been India, which of course they will avoid by any means possible (not saying it's right or wrong, just the way it is).

They can't think about returning to India for many reasons. They left India to experience better job opportunities, better infrastructure, better cars, clean air, minimum corruption, and finally the prestige of being an NRI. Only the job opportunities have taken a dive, rest haven't. And India is not missing them. They should explore their options without any guilt about brain drain.

I never believed in brain drain, not after living in USA for a decade. For every 1 brain we lose to other countries, 20 brains of similar caliber stay back in India despite all the reasons I cited above. Recently, a comment on Washington Post sums it up.

Emigrating to a Foreign Land!-brain_drain.jpeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragracer567 (Post 5595782)

- is it fair for developed countries to benefit from skilled workers - many of whom were skilled using taxpayer money of developing countries?

Looking at all my friends who have emigrated, I don't get this point at all. If they are talking about IITians, then maybe there is some point, since education at those institutes is subsidized.

But all the people I know personally, who left after school and then after college, or through job transfers and are doing really well in the US or in the EU, their parents worked hard to send them to private institutions, none of them to my knowledge were government-aided in any way. And none of the people I know had a government job and then transferred abroad. Plus I know the hoops they had to jump through to make the shift.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for my tax money being used for subsidies and to remove the inequality in our country, I don't grudge paying my taxes. But as far as I know, these people I'm talking about funded their own move. I'm sure their parents and them (those who worked here before moving) put more money into the system, rather than what they got out of it. So I really don't see how the taxpayer funded their moves or why the victim mentality. Like Samurai San has correctly said, the country is doing just fine with those we have here. And those who chose to move must be doing fine wherever they are.

@ JediKnight

Absolutely disagree. This view is even borderline offensive to the thousands of equally talented people who migrate to non-US countries.

I work with a Top 10 German automotive MNC currently as a Product Manager in Dubai and have worked on some of the really desirable cars discussed in this forum. Fact is, I do not have a mechanical/engineering background - but I was still recognized and recruited directly as in intern based on my passion and effort. I did my bachelors in India, but many of the IT (MNC) bodyshops and even established auto companies will not even think about hiring someone into Product Management without an engineering degree, even with an MBA.

I work with a very diverse group of people from around the world. The European work culture is very respectful and considerate towards work/life balance - which is non-existent in Indian work culture. Even in our company globally, although hundreds of the Indian employees are respected, there is open annoyance about the substandard products, quality, and work-culture of the Indian arm of the company.

Indians around the world are extremely talented, hardworking, and capable. But put them in India and its a mess. The problem is not them, the problem is the highly toxic system and environment in India. People who immigrate escape this but the ones left behind have to deal with it. You only see the top 0.01% who make it successfully to the news. There is the other 99.9% who are fighting a battle and will die fighting - this is shameful for our country.

I personally see absolutely no harm in moving abroad if that means you can find success and balance for yourself and your family in every aspect of life! I'm EXTEMELY proud of India's rich culture and history that it had when it was actually a great nation.
Today, even if with a different passport, I love India as an emotion and I'm proudly Indian at heart - but for the brain it's a big NO!

@ JediKnight

IMHO, You are wrong!

The Top 5 economies of the world today except China- basically USA, India, Germany/Euro zone, Japan & Uk all attract/exchange a bunch of highly qualified folks between each other. Quite a few senior folks have already worked in atleast 3 of these 5 countries if not more. There is a lot of collaborative innovation happening today.

Having lived & worked in USA, India & currently in Germany, I have to say that the pay checks are significantly higher in the USA if you are in California or NY but that is not really true across other regions in the states. The quality of life & school education is much higher in Europe in comparison to any place in USA and drugs & Guns are not really a problem. The cost of living in Europe is lower too.

Personally I prefer the Euro zone today but expect to be back in India in the next 5 years or so.