[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by gauravdgr8

House: 2/3 BHK : $3000. With a family its difficult to stay in HBD as they are given by government and checks are done from time to time if the owner is staying or rented it..

It's news to me that its difficult to stay in HDB with family. Owners are allowed to rent out the apartments, and the contract is stamped by HDB. Absolutely no issues there. Since the owner / tenant agreement is there with HDB, there is no question of routine checks.

Some owners try to act smart and rent out the unit without disclosing to HDB, and being illegal there is a possibility getting hassled.

Some of the other expenses you mentioned are on the higher side. And to be frank, if savings alone is the criteria to move abroad, there maybe alternate options which will workout much cheaper.

[Koenigsegg220]

Originally Posted by hellmet

What values are you talking about? Coming to India, I've not seen or heard of a more valueless society than us. If you want your child to dress in beautiful Indian dresses and say namastes and fall on your feet then I won't stop you from coming back. But, if you're worried about your daughter mixing with the localites and learning a 'few things' early, then what have you got to lose? Why imprison her in a cage called "Indian values" and destroy her life. Well that is unless you have such long term plans of getting her married to an Indian dulha, all arranged!



India's standard of living is pathetic, we are all aware of that, but the inflation is horrible and I've noticed a nearly 200% rise in the prices of food (veggies, pulses, oil) and in restaurants after 2007. I dounf And if it is the luxury of maids you're looking for, then let me break it to you, but stable maids are increasing hard to find no matter how much you choose to pay. After bearing with 5-6 maids in 1 year, we gave up and now clean everything ourselves. Peace of mind.


It's not the standard that has gone up, it's the cost of living. The housing boom & rising purchasing power have pumped a lot of funny money into the system. And supply-chain constraints have increased the prices of essentials.

Before we discuss any further, please let us know what you love about India, in points, the techies and engineers that we are, and we can then further elaborate.

Also R2IClubForums is the place to be, for you. It's about people returning to India. This thread is about people like me who'd like to swap places with you :P

Valueless Indian Society ?
Sorry, but I cannot disagree more. It is we, Indians that taught values to the world. I agree with diminishing values, but not with term "valueless".

I found Subway, McD, KFC and Pizza hut taste much more better in India than here. And, the ingredients are atleast fresh and less processed there than here.
The amount of processed food they use here at fast food joints is disastrous.
I worked with almost all the fast food joints as part of the campus job here and i was horrified to see the chicken they keep in the burger was manufactured 28 days before and was been freezing since then.
And the same goes with sausage. Waste meat of all the animals is clubbed together and again processed.

And also, eating out is costlier than it is in India.
The only thing i found better here is the cheaper cars, better roads and infrastructure.
The place where i live in receives snowfall almost half through the year and gets only 6-7 hours of proper sunlight/day, if we are lucky.
During those times, i feel Indian roads are much better than here.
To help imagine the scenario,
Imagine all our Hyderabad roads to be topped up with half feet of sand. Now, think how it feels to walk and drive on that sandy roads.
Here Sand = snow.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by hellmet

What values are you talking about? Coming to India, I've not seen or heard of a more valueless society than us. If you want your child to dress in beautiful Indian dresses and say namastes and fall on your feet then I won't stop you from coming back. But, if you're worried about your daughter mixing with the localites and learning a 'few things' early, then what have you got to lose? Why imprison her in a cage called "Indian values" and destroy her life. Well that is unless you have such long term plans of getting her married to an Indian dulha, all arranged!


:P

It seems you are royally pissed off by something and needs to chill down. Your concept of value system may not necessarily be digestible to all. To each his own..
Coming to cost of living and inflation. The following site will help you to see where each city/country stands. Indian cities are still at the bottom of the heap.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/

[subs]

Hi Hellmet

Thnx for that response.

You are right in way, but let me tell you what I see in children here so that you can see the difference.

Parents and children here have no commitment to each other. In fact, the word commitment has no meaning here. Marriage is a very rare phenomenon and live in relationships take priority over it. Even in that, there is no loyalty, honesty and commitment to your partner.

Parents wait for their children to be around 16 - 18 and then expect the children to move out of their houses and manage on their own. Children on their part have no connection with parents and in most cases wudnt even know if their parents are alive and doing well or lying in a hospital looked after by nurses. Its only when they pass away that children come to the hospital to look at their parents, mainly to check if the house etc., has been 'willed' into their names! I can say this as my wife works in a hospital and this is what she observes!

Yes, India is changing, but we are still a far better society than what I see here. I am quite a open minded person, but there is a limit to which you can be open. All we can do is to try and make sure children dont catch up with the wrong type of people and get into wrong stuff before they reach an age when they are capable of deciding what right and whts wrong.

Cheers
Subs

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by hellmet

What values are you talking about? Coming to India, I've not seen or heard of a more valueless society than us.

Here is an example of values of people in USA. How sad and tragic.

25 people including 10-15 children shot down in a elementary school.

http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-s...opstories.html

Where is the value? Compared to this, India's society seems invaluable. Your statement is highly inappropriate as you generalize societies in India.

Every week there seems to be shooting in some part of USA. Just three days back there was shooting in a mall in Oregon. You think this is normal in a valued society of USA? I am not trying to generalize here but just giving you heads up. Everywhere its the same. Its important how you merge with them.

[hellmet]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg220

It is we, Indians that taught values to the world.

Maybe, but let's not bask in past glory.

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg220

I found Subway, McD, KFC and Pizza hut taste much more better in India than here. And, the ingredients are atleast fresh and less processed there than here. The amount of processed food they use here at fast food joints is disastrous.

Veggies are fresh everywhere whether part of a pizza or a sub.

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg220

I worked with almost all the fast food joints as part of the campus job here and i was horrified to see the chicken they keep in the burger was manufactured 28 days before and was been freezing since then.
And the same goes with sausage. Waste meat of all the animals is clubbed together and again processed.

I knew that about sausage already. Lucky to be a vegetarian. What guarantees the chicken (or any other ingredient) you eat in a road side dhaba on a highway to be fresh?

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg220

And also, eating out is costlier than it is in India.

Matching quality for quality, and purchasing power in mind, India is horribly expensive, eating out. Value for money is not to be found. Explain 150Rs for a small serving of nachos with a tiny cup of salsa in a movie theater. If you charge through the nose, atleast give us what we're paying for (I expect nachos swimming in molten cheddar, lol)

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg220

The place where i live in receives snowfall almost half through the year and gets only 6-7 hours of proper sunlight/day, if we are lucky.
During those times, i feel Indian roads are much better than here.

I lived in Texas, it felt like AP but with excellent infra, spicy mexican food and great chicas (strictly viewing purpose only).

Originally Posted by poloman

It seems you are royally pissed off by something and needs to chill down.

Hehe, no sir, I did not type that in a bad mood, neither am I pissed with anything as of now. I just wrote what I have observed has happened to India in the last decade or so (esp the last 5 yrs). I'm not comfortable with what is happening in the society currently (lot of issues to list here) and what people get away with in the name of "values" and "traditions".

Originally Posted by poloman

Your concept of value system may not necessarily be digestible to all. To each his own..

I sincerely agree I've a very different viewpoint. Like you said "To each his own"

Originally Posted by poloman

Coming to cost of living and inflation. The following site will help you to see where each city/country stands. Indian cities are still at the bottom of the heap.

Doesn't matter where India is in the heap. Livings costs have risen exponentially and it will be a shock to those coming back to India after a long time, esp. for families depending on single salary.

Originally Posted by subs

Children on their part have no connection with parents and in most cases wudnt even know if their parents are alive and doing well or lying in a hospital looked after by nurses.

I would also be uncomfortable with such behavior. But it is possibly because I grew up in a different culture. Westerners think it is weird for an adult to stay with his/her parents, and laugh at the concept of joint families. But this is our culture and we prefer it this way.

Originally Posted by subs

All we can do is to try and make sure children dont catch up with the wrong type of people and get into wrong stuff before they reach an age when they are capable of deciding what right and whts wrong.

Agree again. But I guess you could do that still staying where you are. In fact I might be more concerned letting my (yet to be) children out of my house in India.

Originally Posted by chevelle

25 people including 10-15 children shot down in a elementary school.

Where is the value? Compared to this, India's society seems invaluable. Your statement is highly inappropriate as you generalize societies in India.

Stuff like that happens here too. Girl shot for objecting to a man urinating in front of her house. Pune driver hijacks bus, goes on rampage killing 9

And, I bet the Americans look at our road accidents (one dies ever 4 min) and say "Where is the value (for life)?"

Anyways, let's not limit ourselves to the USA here.

Whew! That took a long time to compose.

Let me add: What I write here comes from my experience, my values, and thinking. Two people can feel about the same thing in very different ways. So, I ask you to not be offended with what I write here, and to take it merely as another opinion. It isn't necessary everyone agree.

[lapsi]

Originally Posted by hellmet

What values are you talking about? Coming to India, I've not seen or heard of a more valueless society than us.

I hope you were aware that most Indians will not agree with you. It takes courage to make such statements in public when you know that you will be attacked for saying this. Good on you, mate.

I agree with you and this post is made simply to support the minority view.

I would like to share a quote by Osho:

"The majority consists of fools, utter fools. Beware of the majority. If so many people are following, that is enough a proof that something is wrong. Truth happens to individuals, not to crowds."

Cheers!

[mazda4life]

Originally Posted by chevelle

Here is an example of values of people in USA. How sad and tragic.

25 people including 10-15 children shot down in a elementary school.

Man !!! our son goes to a elementary school here and these sort of news keep us on tenterhooks. Agreed that there are some amount of controls before anyone enters the school, but such lax gun control laws its next to impossible to monitor each and every person visiting a school.

Our son rides his bike to the school everyday ( he enjoys it and its good exercise) and nowadays with some incidents of stalking and an email from the school principal about not letting kids bike alone, my wife has become sort of paranoid and goes everyday to pick him up.

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by hellmet

Stuff like that happens here too. Girl shot for objecting to a man urinating in front of her house. Pune driver hijacks bus, goes on rampage killing 9

And, I bet the Americans look at our road accidents (one dies ever 4 min) and say "Where is the value (for life)?"

Anyways, let's not limit ourselves to the USA here.

Whew! That took a long time to compose.

Let me add: What I write here comes from my experience, my values, and thinking. Two people can feel about the same thing in very different ways. So, I ask you to not be offended with what I write here, and to take it merely as another opinion. It isn't necessary everyone agree.

Please don't compare two different scenarios just for the sake of comparison. Show me where such a massacre of children have happened anywhere in India or world in recent memory?

You are comparing innocent children's life to a driver who was unhappy with government and the agency he worked for. What did this children do to the world to deserve such punishment. Think of their parents.

While i am really sorry for the girl and the 9 who were victim of crazy driver, i really can't help but blame our Govt a little.
Accidents happen in USA too and most are horrible. In case of accidents you can say stuff happens because that is why its called 'Accidents'. Not in the case of shooting at a school.

Since i am in USA and have lived in India, i can only limit myself to what happens in these two places. Anywhere else and i would only be speculating.

I agree with you though, you are entitled to your opinion and so we are. Don't worry, at least i am not offended by yours as i agree with many things you wrote.

Edit: Since you mention that it shouldn't be in USA, here is a similar case in China that happened 2 yrs back or what happened yesterday. May be the two guys who did these were influenced by what happened in China

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/30/wo...ina.html?_r=1&

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/...ed_816680.html

Originally Posted by mazda4life

Man !!! our son goes to a elementary school here and these sort of news keep us on tenterhooks. Agreed that there are some amount of controls before anyone enters the school, but such lax gun control laws its next to impossible to monitor each and every person visiting a school.

Our son rides his bike to the school everyday ( he enjoys it and its good exercise) and nowadays with some incidents of stalking and an email from the school principal about not letting kids bike alone, my wife has become sort of paranoid and goes everyday to pick him up.

School shooting has happened many times this year. It is not a good sign. It is best to be a little cautious as there are other ways to exercise and enjoy.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by chevelle

Please don't compare two different scenarios just for the sake of comparison. Show me where such a massacre of children have happened anywhere in India or world in recent memory?

Nithari killings.
And the numerous illegal abortions of girl child highly prevalent across India.

EDIT: This does not mean that what happened in CT was any less deplorable. US has a problem with its gun culture and the sooner it does something about it, the better and safer it will be for everyone.

Another EDIT: http://metro.co.uk/2012/12/14/man-wi...china-3316760/
A man stabbed 22 children in China. Sick minds are everywhere.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by mazda4life

Our son rides his bike to the school everyday ( he enjoys it and its good exercise) and nowadays with some incidents of stalking and an email from the school principal about not letting kids bike alone, my wife has become sort of paranoid and goes everyday to pick him up.

Originally Posted by chevelle

School shooting has happened many times this year. It is not a good sign. It is best to be a little cautious as there are other ways to exercise and enjoy.

Elementary school is not the appropriate age to let kids bike alone. I would wait at least till an age of 10-12. I started walking to school alone in 2-3 grade but times have sure changed since then.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by chevelle

Please don't compare two different scenarios just for the sake of comparison. Show me where such a massacre of children have happened anywhere in India or world in recent memory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_...hostage_crisis (186 kids died)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbai...ademy_shooting
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-13003419

[mazda4life]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

Elementary school is not the appropriate age to let kids bike alone. I would wait at least till an age of 10-12. I started walking to school alone in 2-3 grade but times have sure changed since then.

Agree with you... my son does not bike alone while going as there is a group , but while coming back he does not get company as he has some advanced math and soccer etc etc ...hence my wife goes and accompanies him.

I have been reading more about the tragedy at Connecticut and my heart goes out to the suffering families.

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by carboy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_...hostage_crisis (186 kids died)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbai...ademy_shooting
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-13003419

Thanks. You seem to take it too literally.

Everything pales compared to The Beslan School hostage crisis.

In USA, this is the 2nd worst shooting.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by amitoj

US has a problem with its gun culture and the sooner it does something about it, the better and safer it will be for everyone.

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) is enshrined in the constitution. It's the 2nd amendment. Nothing long term will be done about it at the federal level - minor tweaks may happen & there, but always be reversed.

RKBA is a good thing - amongst other things, it exists to form a militia to overthrow an oppressive government. The Govt has a right to have weapons (through the police, military etc). Citizens should not be prevented from doing so.

From the 2nd amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed