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Old 2nd March 2018, 01:01   #1186
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

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Originally Posted by jacobvarughese View Post
Hey basil, I followed your advice and sought a transfer from my firm which was agreed to, by God's utmost grace- I'm now moving out on 16 March to Toronto. Thanks much mate.
Wow congrats Jacob, that's great news. All the best mate.
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:20   #1187
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

Dear all,
Looking for some guidance in applying for Canada PR.
A little about me.
I started my career as a mainframe developer and stayed at it for 5 years. Then moved to software testing due to company's re-alignment policy. So, my overall experience is 11 years with initial 5 years in mainframe development and rest in functional testing. As in most of the MNCs, I was expected to take up managerial role once I crossed 7 years and my scope of technical learning literally came to a halt. You can consider me as a manual tester with good experience in test management. I have done my ISTQB, CSM Certifications in a hope that they will add some value to my profile.

Now that I've decided to apply for Canada PR,
I did some research and found that Automation and performance testing has scope in Software testing.
On the other hand if I look outside testing, Niche skills like RPA (UiPath), Hadoop are in high demand.

My questions are,

1) what kind of skill set I need to acquire to secure an IT Software testing job in Canada ?
2) Whether it is possible to become a developer again by learning RPA or Bigdata (and get some certifications done to support my claim of knowledge) and secure a job in Canada?
3) Going all out of the scope, I'm a fitness and nutrition enthusiast. Will I be able to put my knowledge in use and concentrate setting up an alternate career there?

Any inputs from gurus who have already gone through the path will be highly appreciated. I've never been to onshore despite zillion discussions with my bosses all these years. Somehow it didn't clicked. So I finally took the decision to try all by myself and land in a foreign country to make my family's future prosper.
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Old 19th March 2018, 17:23   #1188
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post

A country as complex to govern as India

Migrate if that is your choice - just be gracious and recognize that this country gave you the market value, the education, the reputation for values & work ethics because of which the West to find you an attractive asset. Do immigrants from India ever say thanks to their ex-country for giving them the wherewithal to have taken off? Being from India gave them an advantage versus a hundred other nationalities. Please don't rationalize it by saying India sucks. 1.3 billion may disagree despite the crowded roads and creaky municipal services and poor government offices.

I have seen this country change painfully in the 49 years I've been reading newspapers.
India is a country that was made difficult to govern . The British didn't have much trouble doing it.

If I ever immigrate, the wherewithal to have taken off would be from my own hard work and the capital investment of my parents and this is despite the best effort of the government to deny me a chance to come up in life while giving the opportunity to an idiot who is chosen despite having lesser qualifications than me for the sole reason that his ancestors were discriminated by mine a century ago.

Sorry for dragging politics into this , the only reason I would ever consider to immigrate is due to reservations. I don't like being treated as a second class citizen and my opportunity stolen by someone else in mainly education.

You know the difference it has caused. I shelled out 75 lakh for a medical degree while a first class citizen who enjoys the benefits this country provides would hardly spend 75000 in a government college despite scoring the same .

My parents would have got me a real nice car if that were the case.

Money or living conditions is never a criteria. My family was poor when I was born having only bare necessities of life. These days , my parents have a comfortable lifestyle.

I am used to the dirt and grime of the country. At the same time, I don't want my kids in the future to face the same discrimination meted out by the government itself.

Last edited by Ragavsr : 19th March 2018 at 17:27.
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Old 19th March 2018, 20:47   #1189
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
I shelled out 75 lakh for a medical degree while a first class citizen who enjoys the benefits this country provides would hardly spend 75000 in a government college despite scoring the same .

My parents would have got me a real nice car if that were the case.
With due respect to you, medical degree or any other degree for that matter is to be earned through hard work and not bought by money.

It easy to blame reservations for country's problem. Let me tell you something my cousin cleared Civil service exam recently on his own merit in at fourth attempt even though odds were staked against him.

Yes its better to emigrate if you get opportunity, however keep in mind societal differences. If you migrate you have to integrate with that society for better or worse.
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Old 19th March 2018, 21:43   #1190
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Originally Posted by FrozeninTime View Post
With due respect to you, medical degree or any other degree for that matter is to be earned through hard work and not bought by money.

It easy to blame reservations for country's problem. Let me tell you something my cousin cleared Civil service exam recently on his own merit in at fourth attempt even though odds were staked against him.

Yes its better to emigrate if you get opportunity, however keep in mind societal differences. If you migrate you have to integrate with that society for better or worse.
1. For one , you can't buy a medical degree these days atleast not in my state. The whole admission process including the management seats have been brought under the open admission system. 75 lakhs is the official tuition fee in a private college. ( this opens a new can of worms because the suckers used this as an opportunity to shove down reservations on management seas, which were previously deviod of the cancer)

2. I understand perseverance myself very well. This is my second degree and I got into it because I was really interested in it.

Congrats to your cousin But if his scores were good enough the erlier 3 attempts for privileged first class citizen of this country to have got into civil services, then its utterly unjust he had attempt so many times and most people just give up and curse their fate , lead a mundane life while the privileged ones enjoy the perks.eg. My mom could have been a doctor if not for these reservations.

More than the reservation quotas, what hurts is the fact that privileged ones are eligible to / do take seats from the remaining general category despite having 50% seats( 69% in my hell of a state) reserved exclusively for them. The issue is the groups who demand the privileges are not so backward anymore . Most are rich, go to good schools and have equal opportunities as any other citizen.

3. No two ways about it. Will be tough for me but I presume my future generations would thank me .
A new society/ country might discriminate against you but then I can accept people showing a bias versus institional bias.

The envelope in India is being pushed ahead every 20-30 years. In the 50's and 60's you had land reforms and small quotas, the early 2000's , you have the quota system ballooon to a majority. If there is massive unemployment 20-30 years down the line, the same suckers will push the quota system even in private institutions as mooted my amny already

My grand parents' generation were uprooted by land reforms which made them paupers overnight ( they held large farmlands till then ). My and my parents' generation were harshly impacted by quotas in education. Tomorrow, it might be something else.

Last edited by Ragavsr : 19th March 2018 at 21:46.
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Old 19th March 2018, 22:08   #1191
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

Dear @V. Narayan Sir, I agree on every single point you have stated here.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
The sheer volume of posts is an indication of how important it is to some.
Indeed, especially for IT professionals, in fact I have a friend who is going to US in near future for one month (B1 kind of) and is already super excited about the same, in fact has even started thinking that how good it will be if she had an H1.

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You are fortunate to have been educated in a country whose talent is now recognized in many parts of the world. But please don’t use this thread to run down India or what you perceive to be its shortfalls. For some superior municipal services and cleaner streets is more important; for others status in society and being close to their ageing parents is more important. For some the lure of more money is more important; for others earning well in India is also possible without cheating. I notice among many Indians who settle abroad a constant rant about India. Why? I often ask my relatives in USA/Canada why they feel the need to spit on India when they don’t live here or pay taxes here.
This is indeed the biggest problem, I am in India and I am not leaving, I have won awards on national and international stages (have research papers published in one of the most coveted journals), and really don't feel that I need to leave the Indian soil to have a stable career. IT is indeed all about priorities.

But yes, going there and then running down India is something unacceptable, but at the same time; it is something that more than majority of the people do.

Quote:
Will you be able to look after your parents better if you stayed in India - probably yes.
Being a bit emotional kind of, but this is indeed one of the biggest reasons that I haven't migrated out of this country in spite of getting some ludicrous chances too; I can go there for short duration or holidays to experience those countries.

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We should migrate if we wish to. But we don’t need to run down India to justify migrating.
Indeed, go if you want; why talk ill about the country and the people who made you worth it that they want you to add to their GDP?

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
How many of us drawing room critics have written to the PM on the email link provided for any citizen to write up on any subject. So long as you are writing half sense you will usually get a reply in a few days. How many of us write to the local MP of our constituency or the local IPS officer or IAS officer and then see what happens or does not happen. I can bet my last rupee less than 1% of the members of this forum would have done any one of these.
Bitter but true, it is important to reach the right person instead of reaching the top man inside the building. Let me cite an example, in my city there are a few turnarounds where there are no police personnel. During the noon when schools get over or during the evening, there is frequently a 'lock' kind of situation because every motorist is impatient. I have many times seen people honking and complaining, but not one - I mean not a single person comes out on the road. I have myself many times handed the car to my chauffeur and gone out (car drivers bully the chauffeur but not me) and taken my one or two minutes just to stop the vehicles from one side, it goes for hardly ten seconds that some other guys normally join in and within hardly 2-3 minutes the traffic starts moving again.

The issue is that armchair critics are in a decent number (BTW how many are becoming CEOs where who are running India down?) but when it comes to coming out in the ground, few have the guts.

Quote:
Migrate if that is your choice - just be gracious and recognize that this country gave you the market value, the education, the reputation for values & work ethics because of which the West to find you an attractive asset. Do immigrants from India ever say thanks to their ex-country for giving them the wherewithal to have taken off? Being from India gave them an advantage versus a hundred other nationalities. Please don't rationalize it by saying India sucks. 1.3 billion may disagree despite the crowded roads and creaky municipal services and poor government offices.
100% agree, I am one of those 1.3 billion who do disagree. I normally tell foreigners whom I get to meet for any reason that how well actually the complex situations are managed here getting the best compromise between all the situations, the negatives are definitely there; but you need to be a true gutsy manager to sit on the chair of power in India; and before anyone jumps in to tell me about that, well, I am directly connected to politics and I am well aware of the fact that how hard it is to make sure that everyone is happy is contented.
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Old 19th March 2018, 22:31   #1192
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
We should migrate if we wish to. But we don’t need to run down India to justify migrating.
So, how do we, those who have migrated to a foreign land, justify our move without highlighting the shortcomings of living in India that were unacceptable to us? The thread is titled, "Emigrating to Foreign Land! Worth it?" The question at the end of the title implies that both sides of the opinion are welcome. The "Aye" side can not give its explanation without the "Nay" side seeing each reason as "running the country down"

Shall we close the thread then?
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Old 19th March 2018, 23:19   #1193
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

Gentlemen, thank you for your views which liven the debate and enrich us all. I am in the final decade of my career life and I assume you are probably in your first. I am more than happy to provide my perspectives if that helps you arrive at a better and richer point of view to base your decisions. Equally I am comfortable dropping the debate if it ends up in an anonymous slinging match. Am I right in assuming that all of you are young men below the age of 33 with 50 years ahead against my 50 years behind.

Thank you.

Last edited by Rehaan : 20th March 2018 at 12:07. Reason: Removing some blank space from the start of your post.
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Old 20th March 2018, 00:24   #1194
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Equally I am comfortable dropping the debate if it ends up in an anonymous slinging match. Am I right in assuming that all of you are young men below the age of 33 with 50 years ahead against my 50 years behind.

Thank you.
I moved to US when I was 35. I was 32 when I applied for emigration to Canada. A friend of mine who is 40, also considered emigrating to Canada but now age does not favor him (points system)
My father, who is retired, also had several opportunities to emigrate when he was my age. He now feels that he should have taken the chance and emigrated. I should mention that he has had a very successful career even in India and still continues to gain worldwide recognition in his field.
As for the age group, mid 20s to early 30s is the ripe age to emigrate. You would have built up a decent bank balance and you have enough energy and time left to start a new life, a new career and to recover from the one time financial loss of moving. That is why you see this age group in prominence here on this thread.

I have no problem in continuing the debate, as long as a dissenting voice is not seen as a sign of disrespect, because it is anything but that.

In the end, emigrating is a very personal choice. Everyone will have their own set of reasons behind their actions. We just need to be respectful of the opposing views.
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Old 20th March 2018, 00:26   #1195
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

For me this is a Déjà vu thread, but in the reverse. Between 2002 to 2007, I was part of a forum called Return2India or R2I. This forum was originally started by Sathyam (SiFY), and had some VIP members like Prof Vidyasagar, who returned to India in the early 90s and worked directly under Abdul Kalam. This forum changed 3-4 different hosts while I was there. Once Sify shutdown the hosting, most of us moved to MSN forum. Then MSN shutdown, and we moved to something else. Finally, we settled down to a vBulletin based forum just like TeamBHP. So I moved between 4 Ids by the time I got out of the forum. My final handle was same as the TeamBHP handle, you can see the full list here. I was a very active poster. Since I left just after moving to the new hosting software, I am listed as a new member there.

The purpose of that forum was exactly the reverse of this thread. It was about how to return to India successfully and stay there. I joined around 2002 and managed to successfully return to India in 2004 as planned. Even that forum was full of LIAs (living-in-america) who would denigrate India to justify why they don't want to return. I continued to contribute for 3 years even after my return. I eventually stopped as I realised nobody took my onsite reports from India seriously.

Most folks make up their mind about migration or return based on their needs and expectations, and they are here either to justify their decision or requesting help in migration. The former part doesn't work without putting down life in India. I returned to India by repeatedly pointing out negatives of life in USA. We will have to grant the same privilege to folks migrating out of India. This aspect, however negative, is an essential part of this migration process.

Last edited by Samurai : 20th March 2018 at 00:28.
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Old 20th March 2018, 01:06   #1196
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
We will have to grant the same privilege to folks migrating out of India. This aspect, however negative, is an essential part of this migration process.
I thought this day would never come! Samurai and I finally agree on something!!

Sorry about the OT post.
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Old 20th March 2018, 04:42   #1197
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

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In the end, emigrating is a very personal choice. Everyone will have their own set of reasons behind their actions. We just need to be respectful of the opposing views.
Totally agree. It is good to call a spade a spade, and not hide these under the umbrella of patriotism. When both sides of the coin are laid before the reader, they have the chance to make an informed decision. That's why this is a forum, and not a publication.

As for me, i have emigrated to Australia and while i do not ridicule India in any manner, i don't hesitate to point out what's wrong and what can be improved, and that goes both ways. For example, i have had discussions with friends on how advanced/technologically superior the Indian banking system is as compared to that in Australia, where it is only now that inter-bank transfers are completed instantaneously whereas India has had NEFT/IMPS since ages now.
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Old 20th March 2018, 14:52   #1198
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Is Emigrating from India worth it?
Not an easy question to answer, and even if one does, it will not be applicable to everyone.

(for the below, I assume emigration is to a developed nation and for a salaried job)

- From an income/saving/money perspective -
Abroad makes eminent sense.
For similar input effort in India vs Developed nation, the income/savings is much higher abroad. Even, considering education, a similar education will yield better income abroad compared to India.

- From career growth perspective -
Equal.
In the private sector, motivated folks who are smart + intelligent + industrious will reach the higher echelons of management in India as well as abroad.
Though, I must add that given the growth in India, the chances may be a bit higher in India in this aspect.

- From leisure + activity perspective
Abroad, definitely.
India sorely lacks clean and desirable public spaces esp in the large cities. Club memberships are notoriously cornered by old upper caste gents and their entitled progeny.
Avenues to seek specialist hobbies are much more abroad, though one is quite pressed for time to pursue those (see next point)

- From home/personal work effort perspective
India.
Domestic help, full time helps, cook, driver, car cleaner, milk delivery etc etc, pretty in-expensive in India, so one has much more free time to relax, catch up with friends, watch movies etc.
Abroad, weekends are full of errands of the house and taking kids to tennis/dance/music lessons. In India, a household with income of 20+ Lakhs will typically have multiple helps. Whereas, very few Indians are willing to pay $200/hr for helps abroad unless they are at $150K+ income levels.

- From family perspective
India.
Assuming one’s parents, in-laws, siblings, spouse’s siblings are based in India (most, if not all), it will always be better here than anywhere far.
Unless, one is emigrating to Gulf or Singapore, other countries are too far off to give a sense of comfort to ones aging parents and in-laws.
Festivals just aren’t the same without some members of family around, it is unfair to deny kids the joys of being near their grand-parents and vice-versa.

- From social / family support perspective
India.
The sense of support that come by being close to extended family can never be had elsewhere. Consider medical emergencies, early parenting support, etc.
And this works both ways – perceived support by your siblings/parents by your presence in India and by you due to their presence close by.
The society, not only families but friends, colleagues, acquaintances, is much more connected in Asian and African cultures compared to the West. This directly impacts happiness and stress quotient as a person ages.

- From societal adjustment perspective
India.
Anywhere else, one has to be investing effort to fit in which is an additional burden. In India, you can be the desi that we all are.
For emigrant kids it is even worse, they have no idea why they are looked at differently by natives, as far as they are concerned they are themselves.

From safety perspective
Abroad – if one is emigrating to Nordic countries, Australia, NZ, HK, Singapore, Japan or most EU nations.
India – if emigrating to US, UK, etc.
This is debatable, but the gun violence in US is crazy and the political ineptitude to address it really is maddening.

From “Tax value” perspective
Abroad.
No questions, the feeling of paisa-vasool on one’s Tax paid monies is so much more in developed countries than in India.

From Kid’s future perspective
Equal.
Access to world class education and ability to pay for those is higher abroad. Think MIT, Purdue, Oxford, Stanford, INSEAD etc. But jobs are less and getting scarce by the day.
Getting into good institutions is very difficult, but plethora of jobs for those with good education and drive.

From “India’s Debt” perspective
India.
If you have taken advantage of India’s highly subsidized public education system (Kendriya Vidyalaya, IIT, IIM, RECs, NLS, AIIMS, etc), then it is your obligation to repay that debt to India before quitting.
One can debate this point, but this is a fact that an emigrant cannot wish away.



Whew, never typed so much (I prove my name wrong today).
Hope it is of value to some. I am open to debate.

But, one final thought I’ll leave you with – Never leave India to run away from its shortcomings, one can never be happy that way. Always go towards something better, eg, a better career option, or a loved one, whatever that one big goal is.
Because running away from negatives isn’t possible, many of those negatives aren’t India’s, they are one’s own.


cheers
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Old 20th March 2018, 16:32   #1199
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
I am more than happy to provide my perspectives if that helps you arrive at a better and richer point of view to base your decisions. Equally I am comfortable dropping the debate if it ends up in an anonymous slinging match.
Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
I have no problem in continuing the debate, as long as a dissenting voice is not seen as a sign of disrespect, because it is anything but that.

In the end, emigrating is a very personal choice. Everyone will have their own set of reasons behind their actions. We just need to be respectful of the opposing views.
Gentlemen, discussions and debates; are always welcome; especially when it is factual / experience based than hypothetical / conceptual basis; as given by you guys.

@v.Narayan - IMO writing/reaching out to the elected officials is a practice followed quite thoroughly in the west. I really doubt if we practice it that efficiently (and I mean with actionable results from the governing bodies). I'd be more than happy to be corrected on this (assuming it's not a few cases here and there which generally are shared and re-shared on social forums).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

Most folks make up their mind about migration or return based on their needs and expectations, and they are here either to justify their decision or requesting help in migration. The former part doesn't work without putting down life in India. I returned to India by repeatedly pointing out negatives of life in USA. We will have to grant the same privilege to folks migrating out of India. This aspect, however negative, is an essential part of this migration process.
+ 1

Also sometimes it is relevant to question the views as a lot of the times we make generalizations based on a single (/our) experience or around us; or what we hear in news or from people around us. While this might not make sense to the person who already has made the decision, it does provide the larger audience a much better understanding.

I did take the decision to move back from the US after a (relatively) decent stint of 3 years. Not an easy decision to make; considering more than half of my extended family is all over the US (and they questioned my decision a lot!) and my firm was more than happy to do the necessary to convert my visa into the next level.

While my mind is still debating (to some extent ) the sanity of my decision, I have found one big concern in India that wasn't that much of a problem when I left for the US back in 2014 - pollution. Delhi is in the limelight for pollution, but the rest of the country isn't faring any better. Trust me - this is the biggest problem for all of us - rich and poor; those who have reservations, and those who don't. This alone is questioning my resolve to move to India and I keep wondering if I made the right decision.

Last edited by ninjatalli : 20th March 2018 at 16:39.
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Old 20th March 2018, 17:38   #1200
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re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land!

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Dear all,
Looking for some guidance in applying for Canada PR.
Not an expert, but first thing would be to check how much points you rake up based on your age/educational qualifications etc. A major factor in getting a good score is the IELTS results. If you can score a overall band 9 - your chances are good. The recent draws have called candidates with overall scores of 450+
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