[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

As per my experience with some close friends and family members I can easily say that 90% of them confessed that they are not happy living in U.S but due to one or the other reasons they can't come back to India.

India is a land of opportunities and with cheap labour and resources we can have a better life style. I can work hard in my field or area of expertise and afford all sort of convenience in India but the same is not possible in foreign land. Security services, car wash, housekeeping, baby sitter, plumber and the list is very long. All of these are readily available in India so in my books live life king-size can be achieved easily in India as compared to other developed countries.

It’s that definition of better life style which makes some happy and content about the place they chose to live. Quality and standard of living can be further elevated by the living standards of the larger society we live in.

Last year I visited a relative’s place, and on return I noticed that my 9 year old girl was not very happy. Asked the reason and she said – “I saw the auntie (helper) sitting on the kitchen floor and having her coffee”. That thought from an 8 year old made me feel proud!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This article reminds me another famous article that was making rounds in the 90s in the Indian Internet news groups. It was written by Dr. M. Vidyasagar who returned to India in 1989, and joined Centre for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics in Bangalore. He went on to be director of DRDO, reporting directly to Abdul Kalam.
http://www.utdallas.edu/~mxv091000/scit.html

Samurai, your sagacity and width and depth of reading never fails to impress me. That is a genuine compliment. What a thoughtful article without going off the edge in either direction. He puts the challenges of the returning NRI so succinctly.

All,

With time and that time is already shaping fast the Indian diaspora will be one of our greatest geo-political assets. The Chinese are already there. Their diaspora started a ~100 years before ours. And if in the next 35 years we inch forward on civic sense, cleanliness, ease of doing business etc the gap I guess wont be so wide and the passions so high. I am confident it will happen. When the Indian diaspora and Indian aspiring diaspora can seamlessly move back and forth real soft value and exchange of habits and practices will come to our country. In the early 70's my mother used to march me off to stand in the kerosene queue for the family's monthly quota!! and in 1980 when we were building a house in our hometown (Lucknow) my job as a young man was to chase down the dalals who would get us our quota of cement. And this in a well off upper middle class home.From that reference point we have come far and have a lot further to go. But we are not a God forsaken country.

This thread is very useful for those young folks who wish to immigrate or evaluate the option especially with experienced members chipping in with real data and practical guidance. Let's keep it that way. The piece on the rightness or wrongness, India sucks, greatness of the West, this God forsaken country, you are betraying India, nationalism, India paid for your education etc are like religion - neither side will ever see eye to eye and we are likely to stay rigidly with our respective views, me included. If I have been offensive towards any of you my apologies.

In the period 1947 to 1959 or so the Govt of India sponsored hundreds if not thousands of Indians to study abroad because our own institutions were still far and few in between. A lot of private trusts did the same. FC Kohli the founder of TCS was one such student. Most went to the UK. All were expected to return and help build the newly independent India. My father was one of these fortunate few. In his sepia tinted graduation photo from a certain UK university about 15% of the class is Indian. As a kid I knew all of them as friendships continued in later life. One of those 20 boys stayed back and joined GE the rest 19 all came back held down I assume by the bonds, lack of friendly immigration rules and a national pull. I could share what FC Kohli said on this topic in a talk I attended in 1981 but I don't want to be accused of being a jingoistic nationalist.

I have one genuine question of those who are in a position to share their perspectives. Why is it that many (not all) NRIs who have emigrated to the West when visiting India or socially meeting a desi like me in USA launch of into a diatribe on India. This has always foxed me. What is the emotional reason behind this. I have seen it so often over the years that it could not be co-incidental. It is almost as if there is a need to vent and reassure. Sadly I see it in NRIs who out of chance I end up dealing with in business in USA or UK. This is not a baiting question but a real one.

[arindambasu13]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I have one genuine question of those who are in a position to share their perspectives. Why is it that many (not all) NRIs who have emigrated to the West when visiting India or socially meeting a desi like me in USA launch of into a diatribe on India. This has always foxed me. What is the emotional reason behind this. I have seen it so often over the years that it could not be co-incidental. It is almost as if there is a need to vent and reassure. Sadly I see it in NRIs who out of chance I end up dealing with in business in USA or UK. This is not a baiting question but a real one.

Sir: while I am not one of those people who have moved abroad and resided or worked there for any extended period, I do have, just like everyone else, tons of friends who have done so. The question that you pose is very pertinent, since I have observed exactly the same sort of diatribe/ monologue spouting out of these friends when we happen to meet. Having had this conversation ad nauseam, my personal opinion is as follows.

There are two primary reasons why this happens:

(1) there is an inherent need to justify their move to another country when in most instances, there are aged parents, relatives and general family and friends who these persons have left behind. For many of of us in similar situations, the feeling of guilt when living so far away and unable to be intrinsically part of our parents'/ families' lives very strong. This translates to a subconscious need to justify one's search for better infrastructure/ more wealth/ whatever else it is that incentivizes one to leave India- especially when one meets their friends and counterparts who are in India and in a geographically better position to be able to be by their parents' sides when the need arises. Yes, I do understand that one is just a 15-25 hour flight away, but from what I have seen of all my friends abroad, the reality is that they hardly manage to come to India once a year to visit family, friends and parents, often times even less.

(2) Superiority complex: This is a controversial one, but existent nonetheless. There are many of us who do not have that false sense of elevation and entitlement when we find ourselves in better circumstances (whether financially or otherwise). However, there are an equal number who feel that they have achieved something gargantuan by working for a foreign company on foreign shores and earning in USD (or GBP or AUD or whatever it may be). The feeling becomes so ingrained within that person that its an involuntary reaction when that guy sees his contemporary continuing to lead the "Indian" life while he congratulates himself and pats his own back on his achievement in "escaping the clutches of this godforsaken country". As a consequence, he makes it a point to enumerate all that is not well with the country and is so much better in the promised land of the US/UK etc etc.

These are of course personal observations that I have witnessed time and again when I visit my friends or relatives or they come down to India every year. There may be many other reasons, but the two above are very apparent to me.

[ampere]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I have one genuine question of those who are in a position to share their perspectives. Why is it that many (not all) NRIs who have emigrated to the West when visiting India or socially meeting a desi like me in USA launch of into a diatribe on India. This has always foxed me. What is the emotional reason behind this.

Just my guess:

They just want to get a re-confirmation from others that what they did was right. Especially because, they may be doubting their decision later in time after they made their decision and now its near impossible to turn back.

[GJ01]

Originally Posted by arindambasu13

There are two primary reasons why this happens:

Originally Posted by ampere

Just my guess:

They just want to get a re-confirmation from others

+ 1 to both of the above.

Dont want to repeat the points made earlier, the one thing that I have seen in my conversations is that for many of my friends who have moved there in the era of 2000 and beyond, in some corner of their heart always have harboured the thought of coming back to India - 'sooner or later'. What has actually happened is that their kids - who are born in these foreign lands (US, Europe etc) do not have the same longing for India. The western media. for their part make sure that any documentary they show of India - mostly talks about how dirty and polluted the Ganga is, how Dharavi is the biggest slum, How people still beat clothes at 'dhoobi ghat'. I have rarely seen a documentary in US / UK that talked about India and did not berate it.

When I speak with my American colleagues especially, many still think of the country with these premonitions. When we host our American / European customer in India - each one of them has always remarked about how they see cows and dogs on the road, of beggars at traffic signals - and so on.
I think for them - life is digital - either its all good, or its all bad. Seeing a melting pot like India does not fit in their parenthesis of correctness.

This, I believe is what the 1st generation kids born there in the foreign lands also get sensitized to. So while many of those who have immigrated to other countries may 'want' to come back - India's shortcomings as compared to their current countries of domicile notwithstanding - they can't do so due to familial pressures. So the frustration gets vented out in form of a diatribe against everything Indian.

As Ampere and Arindam have said above, for many, if not most, its more to justify their decision for themselves than actually do berate India that this rant starts. And if you were to agree to their points of view, it gives them the internal solace to override their guilt or helplessness of not going back to India (to family etc).

EDIT:
While I mentioned foreign media and channels that air documentaries - I need to add that our own 'so called' News channels and portals are not too far behind in berating our owns. I remember when I was in the US and UK between 2003 and 2010, my source of info on India was the Indian news portals - TimesofIndia, NDTV etc are the ones that got promoted the most and they would therefore be my landing page for info on Indian news. The amount of negative / sad news that get listed as headlines, breaking news and what not is very disheartening. If I am an outsider looking at India with these portals as my window into India, it painted a horribly sordid picture of what kind of a country India is.

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Spot on! That's that first thing I noticed too. His sampling method is very spurious, he just went with what is convenient.

Great article, applicable even now. I know many relatives and friends who are examples of this.

This article reminds me another famous article that was making rounds in the 90s in the Indian Internet news groups. It was written by Dr. M. Vidyasagar who returned to India in 1989, and joined Centre for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics in Bangalore. He went on to be director of DRDO, reporting directly to Abdul Kalam.

http://www.utdallas.edu/~mxv091000/scit.html

Well written article and I as one of those current generation NRI's can totally agree to every single point written in there. Having worked in India after briefly being abroad have some different opinion but that I firmly is mostly due to my ignorance and lack of will to change myself.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I have one genuine question of those who are in a position to share their perspectives. Why is it that many (not all) NRIs who have emigrated to the West when visiting India or socially meeting a desi like me in USA launch of into a diatribe on India.

The only people who are truly in a genuine position to share their perspective are the ones with whom you have had said conversations, where they have launched into, according to you, a diatribe on India. Without actually having been present there, all anyone here can do is speculate. And those speculations will be based on their own opinions.

I know of one person who visits our office here in US from India every year. Each time we meet, he goes at extreme lengths to paint a rosy picture of India and tries to ridicule the American way of life based on his short stays and anecdotal opinions about family values in US. I try to bring out the shortcomings of living in India that I faced and highlight the positives of life here in order to balance out the conversation. Maybe he sees me as spewing venom against his country every time we have this conversation? Two sides...

[navin_bhp]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I have one genuine question of those who are in a position to share their perspectives. Why is it that many (not all) NRIs who have emigrated to the West when visiting India or socially meeting a desi like me in USA launch of into a diatribe on India. This has always foxed me. What is the emotional reason behind this. I have seen it so often over the years that it could not be co-incidental. It is almost as if there is a need to vent and reassure. Sadly I see it in NRIs who out of chance I end up dealing with in business in USA or UK. This is not a baiting question but a real one.

This is not an answer to your question but I have not met anyone like you mentioned. This includes friends, collegues, their friends, visiting parents and relatives of theirs etc.. Some parents and friends including me only wish we had the same road rules and safe school buses in India like US. I also wish we have shops like Autozone, O'Reilly, Advanced auto, harbor freight etc.. where we can buy all kind of cool tools to work on cars and bikes.

Originally Posted by amitoj

The only people who are truly in a genuine position to share their perspective are the ones with whom you have had said conversations, where they have launched into, according to you, a diatribe on India. Without actually having been present there, all anyone here can do is speculate. And those speculations will be based on their own opinions.

Exactly my thoughts.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by navin_bhp

...but I have not met anyone like you mentioned.

Yeah, neither have I. Perhaps it's a generational thing?

All of my friends who moved abroad to study after college/school here and work are pretty unsentimental about the whole thing. They really seem to enjoy their holidays here and, if anything, miss their original homeland. But they're also pretty clear about why they moved. Better education, specialized research fields that we still don't offer here, quality of life, safer environment for children, career growth opportunities and the like. Even when I've met them in their new countries, I've never heard them compare life 'there' or 'here' either positively or negatively in any extreme manner.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I have one genuine question of those who are in a position to share their perspectives. Why is it that many (not all) NRIs who have emigrated to the West when visiting India or socially meeting a desi like me in USA launch of into a diatribe on India. This has always foxed me. What is the emotional reason behind this. I have seen it so often over the years that it could not be co-incidental. It is almost as if there is a need to vent and reassure. Sadly I see it in NRIs who out of chance I end up dealing with in business in USA or UK. This is not a baiting question but a real one.

IIRC you were successful in getting the top brass of Skoda India and Lexus India to provide you with a private audience to clarify product, brand, service related queries. I didn’t think that such a thing was even possible. But you have made it happen.

From the above and the very matured language you use in your posts, I can safely deduce that you are very pragmatic and rational. And of course, you must be a great influencer to get Skoda India to talk.

So I wonder, why can’t you ask the above question to the same NRIs you deal with, because they are the ONLY ones who can explain their actions. Everyone else (especially in this thread) may just speculate like how I have done below,

1. The parent of a child with movement disabilities who went on a diatribe against India because their child couldn’t get access to disabled friendly facilities.
2. The parent of a child with muscular sclerosis, who went on a diatribe against India because they couldn’t find a support model for their child to lead a respectful life in India.
3. The parent of a child with breathing difficulties who went on a diatribe against India because they couldn’t live in a city with inhospitable air quality.
4. The parent of a child who went on a diatribe against India because they couldn’t handle the pressure of enrolling their child to a kindergarten school. Forget about the child’s pressure, that’s at a different level.
5. A petrol-head who went on a diatribe against India because it would be too late for him to realise his dream of owning a 6-second car in India.

I don’t know if the people whom you met are on the above list because I’m just speculating. I hope you get the gist.

This thread is a not a definitive judgement poll on, “Emigrating to a Foreign Land! Worth it?”. It’s just a dialogue. One person’s nectar may be another person’s poison. One person’s mandatory requirement may be another person’s luxury. The “Worth it?” part is dependent on so many factors including the country, age, family, finance, work industry, religion, the appetite for risk etc.

As part of the dialogue to assess the worth, one does end up calling a spade a spade. It’s unfortunate that some people find it hard to digest that. It’s ok to rant about bad road conditions and driving habits in the Accidents thread. But try telling the same in this thread, some will lose their mind.

What I have realised is, some parents can thrash their child but the neighbours can’t even complain about their children. Similarly, NRIs, OCIs and PIOs are expected to relinquish their rights to state anything negative about India, even if it’s just stating the damn truth. Fair enough I’d say. But at least give them the space to talk in this thread, so it’ll help people make an informed decision.

For time immemorial, humans have migrated for different reasons. The search for better prospects for their self and their lineage has always been there. Look just two generations back in your family tree and you’ll know how much your elders have migrated. So don’t get suddenly nationalistic in this thread and paint NRIs, OCIs and PIOs with generalised statements.

On a lighter note, don’t assume that people who rant about India won’t rant about their current residing country. They very much will. Example: I have a 258BHP 6.x second car but I have to play hide and seek with speed cameras and cops. With migration, you get some; you lose some. There’s no land of milk and honey.

And those of you who are posting queries here, I hope you also check out ExpatForum, it’s got a wealth of information for different countries. The different experiences of people, both successes and failures will give you a balanced view.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I have one genuine question of those who are in a position to share their perspectives. Why is it that many (not all) NRIs who have emigrated to the West when visiting India or socially meeting a desi like me in USA launch of into a diatribe on India. This has always foxed me. What is the emotional reason behind this. I have seen it so often over the years that it could not be co-incidental. It is almost as if there is a need to vent and reassure. Sadly I see it in NRIs who out of chance I end up dealing with in business in USA or UK. This is not a baiting question but a real one.

From what I see, the reason probably is the inherent human trait to justify his/her decision, and also some have this false notion that they’ve achieved something superior than others. A reason for decision can be very different justifying a decision. The latter is the reason for the diatribe I guess

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by GJ01;4381026.

What has actually happened is that their kids - who are born in these foreign lands (US, Europe etc) do not have the same longing for India. .

This is a very common phenomena for all immigrants the world over. New generations tend to loose their bindings with the old home county. Especially children when attending local schools will very quickly pick up the local language and culture. When we moved from the UK to the Netherlands and put our eldest son in kindergarten, he was speaking Dutch within a few weeks. Although my wife and me always speak English at home, with our kids, their first language effectively is still Dutch as they are exposed to Dutch much more then to English, through school, friends, clubs etc.

In the 70s a lot of immigrants came to my home country the Netherlands. Mainly from countries such as Marocco, Turkey. By now these are sort of 4th generation. Most of them have never been back to what their (great) parents see as their original home country. They are for all intents and purposes very much Dutch citizens with very few emotional or other ties to wherever their (great) parents came from.

It is the same for just about any group (generation) of emigrants to any country. With each new generaton the old ties become less. Natural process and those 3rd, 4th, 5th generation might still emigrate at some point in time, but not necessarily back to their old home country.

The other day I met a couple, third generation Dutch emigrants to the USA. They were born and lived in the USA for over thirty years, their grand parents were Dutch and had emigrated to the USA. Now this couple is emigrating to NewZealand. Apart from the odd short stay in the Netherlands they have no Dutch belonging, no idea what the Netherlands is all about. They could still understand Dutch, some, but could not speak it.

When we lived in the USA I was always surprised to hear from American folks about where they came from. Even today many folks are just 3rd-5th generation emigrants. This is one country that has seen and still does a continuous influx of immigrants.

That's just the way it goes, very natural and I'm all for it.

Jeroen

Jeroen

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

That's just the way it goes, very natural and I'm all for it.

Jeroen

Totally agree. It is good to see people intermingling and bridging the man-made divides and boundaries in the name of nationalities.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

When we lived in the USA I was always surprised to hear from American folks about where they came from. Even today many folks are just 3rd-5th generation emigrants. This is one country that has seen and still does a continuous influx of immigrants.

That's just the way it goes, very natural and I'm all for it.

True, they know their roots, celebrate the pride of their surnames while adapting to the country they were born in/grown up. This is pretty much the case with countries like Australia, Singapore etc.

[subraiyr]

Originally Posted by kiku007

So I wonder, why can’t you ask the above question to the same NRIs you deal with, because they are the ONLY ones who can explain their actions. Everyone else (especially in this thread) may just speculate like how I have done below,

1. The parent of a child with movement disabilities who went on a diatribe against India because their child couldn’t get access to disabled friendly facilities.
2. The parent of a child with muscular sclerosis, who went on a diatribe against India because they couldn’t find a support model for their child to lead a respectful life in India.
3. The parent of a child with breathing difficulties who went on a diatribe against India because they couldn’t live in a city with inhospitable air quality.
4. The parent of a child who went on a diatribe against India because they couldn’t handle the pressure of enrolling their child to a kindergarten school. Forget about the child’s pressure, that’s at a different level.
5. A petrol-head who went on a diatribe against India because it would be too late for him to realise his dream of owning a 6-second car in India.

Very interesting questions posted by Narayan. Having travelled to US and UK for quite sometime, i too echo the same sentiments where the NRI population launch into a diatribe. At the same time, they do show a sense of melancholy and nostalgia when they talk about their younger days in India

A very interesting conversation i have with a long standing NRI friend of mine. She is a doctor and is probably one of the top 10 neuro trauma specialists in the US. Everytime we meet up, i have a very simple question for her. What prevents you coming back to India and serving the population on neuro trauma here vs US where you have about 7 more doctors working on the same speciality. Apart from talking about facilities there is clearly nothing much that she can throw at me. The only other thing is that the work culture there seems to be a bit more relaxed. She doesnt need to clock 40 hours per week.

Obviously the facilities in India for disabled folks are lesser compared to the US. You have to struggle to get your wheelchair through the ramps on shopping malls. But the point being we as a nation are changing. On the larger scheme of things cost of medical treatment is definitely lesser here compared to the US

Obviously i am rambling a bit. Bottom line being that i feel the NRI population has a bit of defensive attitude when it comes to migrating to a foreign land. More to come