[chbpreddy]

Spent 1/4th of my weekend reading the entire thread. This could be the most educating thread on the forum after the 'recession' thread. Amazing perspectives people! Keep them coming.

[vivekiny2k]

I just thought I will add some reality to your perceived happiness.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

I personally don't live abroad because I value freedom (from government control) over other things.

If I ever have kids - I won't be forced to feed them ritalin. If I disagree with a doctor (which I often do), I can walk up to a pharmaceutical and buy my own drugs without prescription.

-------One, I am surprised buying drugs without prescription is your definition of freedom. Disagreeing with the doctor is allowed in all countries, except when you are bedridden or are not competent to make your own decisions. However, think of the times when you won't even have access to a doctor because every single auto, car and bike would be competing for the space in front of your ambulance. And the times when your 15 year old will walk to the store to get prozac (or substitute) for recreational use.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

If I choose to indulge in recreational narcotics, I can do that in the privacy of my house, without federal police tracking my credit-card statements, or having helicopter surveillance over my house.

--------Again surprised . But let me tell you, if the neighborhood neta decides you be implicated in drug trade, he won't need a helicopter or credit card statement. Heck, you won't even be required to have any connection with drug at all.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

I can keep whatever breed of dog I want,

--------Again surprised, you remind of people who keep tigers as pets here. Kids get killed by rottweilers and bulldogs routinely here. Somebody has to stand up and stop the nonsense. I am with government here.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

I do not have my ISP report me for downloading a rare movie which isn't available in stores anymore,

--------Actually, again, if the government decides it needs to shut you down, they won't be looking for somebody downloading a movie, they will simply shut down youtube and all sharing sites (or worse, the internet), like they did a while back.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

if I don't like the dumbed-down mainstream schooling system (which I actually don't), I can go to a Kota (or wherever)... I can go on forever.

---------You can go to many private schools here, as long as you are ready to bear the cost. The dumbed down system here has full involvement of the parents and teachers in curriculum, sports, administration and everything else. And don't even get me started on things going on in Kota.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

P.S. Before others point out - yes, I am aware of the recent emergency like situations the govt. is creating. But that isn't to say that the situation is much better abroad (take Assange's case for e.g.)

No big deal, I know both places have +ves and -ves, I just hoped your euphoria should not become contagious.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Further, Bangalore is a relatively safer city in India. You are far less likely to be attacked in Bangalore than Australia (or most non-Scandinavian Western Countries).

That is probably because getting a crime registered in an Indian police station is next to impossible, unless there has been a loss of life.

Also, will you be as glad about openly available recreational drugs (whatever that is) when you see your kids indulging in them?

[aaggoswami]

Given the current scenario, it makes sense to emigrate. The first generation would suffer, but next would not. In India, successive generations would keep on suffering. Just switch on news channel and it would be clear.
In a country where CAG report can be called illegal ( or wrong ) by GOI, well, we are heading to big bad times.

The tax payer must not suffer this much. Recently my friend returned from an African nation. He said, that the African nation he was in had a better life than India. Were it not his parents, he would be sticking to Africa.

[Prawaal]

Adding my 2 cents based on my experiences in Canada. I have mostly stayed in Toronto downtown (Yonge and Wellsley). Also my experiences are based on staying with wife rather than staying like a bechelor.
Agreed that Canada is a beautiful place and most of us get facinated for cleaner surroundings and first world charm. However there were few cons which made me conclude that staying back in India is not too bad either..
1) The convenience and comfort, most of us are enjoying in India. It is very difficult to afford in Toronto. When I get up here in India, i have a cook coming over and cook breakfast/lunch for us. We have home help for cleaning, we have help for car wash and help to babysit our son. Had i to have the same in Canada, i would have to be a CEO of a company.
2) The racism here in India is very vocal and direct. However there it is more suttle and indirect. Somehoe that hurts me more.
3) For out kids to grow up, there cannot be a better place than India. If you feel that connection to Indian culture (read as respecting parents etc) is important, i dont think you would have the same if you bring up your kids in Canada. Most of my friends kids there hardly have any respect for India freedom fighters or the sacrifices they did to achieve independence.
4) A few of us create a small India there. We live in isolcated places and socialise only with fellow Indians, wear Indian clothes and do not adapt to Canadian culture. I somehow feel that this is also the best solution and if we finalize to move over to Canada, we should try being one of them than getting into a confused state. (Specially for our kids).

-Prawaal

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

One, I am surprised buying drugs without prescription is your definition of freedom. Disagreeing with the doctor is allowed in all countries, except when you are bedridden or are not competent to make your own decisions.

It matters. Check out what happens with patients suffering from hypothyroidism in the West. The system is so deeply institutionalized, that there is only ONE accepted solution to all problems - T4 supplements, when there is clear evidence that desiccated porcine works better for a lot of patients who produce adequate T4, but can't convert T4 into T3. Desiccated porcine is, however, outlawed.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

However, think of the times when you won't even have access to a doctor because every single auto, car and bike would be competing for the space in front of your ambulance.

In terms of pure probabilities - if the ambulance scene was as bad, insurance-less people from the west wouldn't be flying in here to get treated. As inhuman as an ambulance stuck in traffic look - most make it to the hospital.
A 60 year old stroke sufferer in the west, has only one hope - med. tourism.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

------- And the times when your 15 year old will walk to the store to get prozac (or substitute) for recreational use.

I will blame myself for being a stupid parent. Period.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

--------Again surprised . But let me tell you, if the neighborhood neta decides you be implicated in drug trade, he won't need a helicopter or credit card statement. Heck, you won't even be required to have any connection with drug at all.

(1) If you live in a neta's neighborhood - you will never need a reason to move abroad
(2) Yes, you can be implicated for no crime in India - but again, the chances are really really low. In the worst case, there will be a never-ending court case.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

--------Again surprised, you remind of people who keep tigers as pets here. Kids get killed by rottweilers and bulldogs routinely here. Somebody has to stand up and stop the nonsense. I am with government here.

WAAY more number of kids get killed in road accidents, or end up with lifestyle diseases because of junk food (or possibly get molested by religious heads). Once again, the sight of a kid mauled by a rottweiler might look horrible - but statistically it's a very small number.

Also, any dog is capable of biting. Rottweilers, with decent owners, turn out really friendly. Check out youtube videos of Rotties/Dobes with babies.
Dogs, and humans have lived together for 1000s of years - and I am not in favor of governments taking away this freedom. But then - to each his own.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

--------Actually, again, if the government decides it needs to shut you down, they won't be looking for somebody downloading a movie, they will simply shut down Youtube and all sharing sites (or worse, the internet), like they did a while back.

Yes they will - but knowing how horribly inept our administration back home is, it will be supra-easy to bypass it (like it was when they banned it - you didn't even need a proxy, connecting through https sufficed).

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

---------You can go to many private schools here, as long as you are ready to bear the cost. The dumbed down system here has full involvement of the parents and teachers in curriculum, sports, administration and everything else

Private schools abroad (my niece goes to one) are sadly even more dumbed down.

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

And don't even get me started on things going on in Kota.

Kota has a bad reputation in the media because of our school boards lobbying against a parallel schooling system.
I have known enough Kota guys:
(1) lot of them are extra smart
(2) A lot completed PHDs from ivy leagues, and are either pursuing high-end research in universities, or engineering companies. I know people from other coaching institutes in CERN/NASA etc.
Places like Kota do produce some not-so-smart-but-will-work-around-the-system kind of guys - but a vast majority are super smart. The human brain is very receptive between 17-21, and these guys spend 2 years then, competing and collaborating with each other, in an intellectually stimulating environment that no school can ever provide.
P.S. I have never been to Kota (my parents didn't send me), but I would have loved it

Originally Posted by amitoj

That is probably because getting a crime registered in an Indian police station is next to impossible, unless there has been a loss of life.

Cops don't register robberies? I am sorry, but that's untrue.
In 2010,the US saw 400 odd crimes per 100k of the population. That's 1 in 250 - which is not very off when you look at the number of people getting mugged abroad.
I don't know the reason for it though.
Each of my family members have, at least once, been either threatened with violence, or faced mugging abroad in their lifetimes (not racially motivated - but just mugging/criminal incidents). Not once in India.
If you are an urban indian, not living in a modern-day Wasseypur - you are fairly safe. This is specifically true in some cities. I have recently spent some time in Ahmedabad btw - and you can walk around Ahmedabad at 4:00 AM if you want to. You'd just meet friendly cops who'd point you out to the next chai shop

Originally Posted by amitoj

Also, will you be as glad about openly available recreational drugs (whatever that is) when you see your kids indulging in them?

Given that legal drugs, and white-bread are more dangerous than most illicit drugs - I wouldn't have a huge problem. However, if something like this does happen - I'd much rather blame myself for bad parenting. I don't think it's morally correct to preach that the government should take money from other people, put adults who are doing drugs behind bars (for a victimless crime) - just so that I can slack-off and be an okay parent who doesn't want to oversee what his kids are doing.
If these things bother you that much, your first concern should actually be to not reproduce.
P.S. No offence intended whatsoever. I am just putting forward my perspective.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Let me add a few facts for consideration. A few years ago (5+) there was a socio economic study of the emigration from Korea and Taiwan. What was observed that once the real incomes (PPP basis!) crossed some point between 1/3 and 1/2 of the US incomes emigration ceased pretty abruptly. I guess we are approaching that point. The difference was probably due to the home vs alien environment, or whatever.

Nice point, and probably true because it does make sense. In most cases, emigration is an economic decision. Like you said - the decision to leave "home" or a place one is habituated with, if accounted for in the valuation, should explain such behavior.
I can totally see for e.g. why people emigrated between 60s to 90s - because the difference in real incomes was HUGE. It'd be interesting to see where the trend is a few years down the line.

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

In a country where CAG report can be called illegal ( or wrong ) by GOI, well, we are heading to big bad times.

Yes. The situation in the United States is so much better.
You have two candidates for President. One is a democrat, the other a republican. Both, however, only answer their Wall Street masters

[vivekiny2k]

The common theme I see is you love workarounds. Whether it's medicine, internet access, school system or anything else. At the risk of being blunt, I would say you are so used to anarchy you are afraid of any legal system, good or bad.

And I am not here to change your opinion, so take it easy .

[naveenroy]

The above few posts (from both perspectives) seem to be going only one way - or rather 2 ways. Your arguments will never reach a consensus. Your arguments are true - though some are skewed from a US perspective. Why not other countries too? Laws, healthcare, education is way different for US and other European countries right?

In my opinion, I think that we are way too liberal and that there is no control over "over the counter" drugs etc. That we have been used to so much of indiscipline in public life that we get worked up about any attempt to bring some order into our systems. Maybe I am being too vague but hopefully some of you understand where I am going.

[AlphaKilo]

Ok, enough of sensible talk, let me put some nonsense here. (I am not smoking anything while writing this! just working )

"All the worlds a stage and we all play our part in it."

We are basically humans, there is just superficial Indian, American, German or African. This is all divide and rule!

we all take birth the same way and end up in a grave or burnt to ashes.

We own nothing - literally nothing on earth. Everything is temporary!

As long as one is satisfied and gets what he desires to have in his life, any country is eligible to be called "home".

Irrespective of the quality of life, its one's personal choice - amount of mental peace one gets - be it dirty surroundings or time square beach view apartments or alps country side cottage or even house with stinking toilets.

End of the day, the individual has to decide by himself, what he wants to see every morning out of his window or before he goes to sleep.

I hope I have not offended anybody or bored every one. Just my thoughts.

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

I would say you are so used to anarchy you are afraid of any legal system, good or bad.

Possible bro.
As I said, it works for me. And yes, I also think that most (not all) laws are bad.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

It matters. Check out what happens with patients suffering from hypothyroidism in the West. The system is so deeply institutionalized, that there is only ONE accepted solution to all problems - T4 supplements, when there is clear evidence that desiccated porcine works better for a lot of patients who produce adequate T4, but can't convert T4 into T3. Desiccated porcine is, however, outlawed.

Dessicated porcine extract is available in the US - the brand name is Armour. And I have also seen a list of doctors who prescribe it. However is it available in India - I have never seen it in Indian medical shops.

Another thing is that synthetic T3 supplements are also available in the US. So for a very small percentage of people for whom T4 is not enough, T3 can be added, I think.

Originally Posted by amitoj

That is probably because getting a crime registered in an Indian police station is next to impossible, unless there has been a loss of life.

I have registered cases 3 cases in Bombay in the last 20 years - for 'maid stealing', 'chain snatching' and 'vehicle accident'. Each time it took around an hour. But it wasn't really a problem. What place in India are you talking about?

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by carboy

Dessicated porcine extract is available in the US - the brand name is Armour. And I have also seen a list of doctors who prescribe it. However is it available in India - I have never seen it in Indian medical shops.

Another thing is that synthetic T3 supplements are also available in the US. So for a very small percentage of people for whom T4 is not enough, T3 can be added, I think.

I might not be completely right on this - but was merely pointing out the inflexibility in the overly regulated western med. system.
I know though, that porcine extracts are not being widely prescribed (What is the FDA Not Saying About The Future of Natural Desiccated Thyroid Drugs?)
It's difficult to get natural thyroid sups in India, yes. But there are specialty clinics which supply.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

I might not be completely right on this - but was merely pointing out the inflexibility in the overly regulated western med. system.
I know though, that porcine extracts are not being widely prescribed (What is the FDA Not Saying About The Future of Natural Desiccated Thyroid Drugs?)
It's difficult to get natural thyroid sups in India, yes. But there are specialty clinics which supply.

Can you specify where are the speciality clinics in India where you can get it? I am interested in purchasing it as long it's not hugely inflated prices.

I can give you huge list of places in the US - there is absolutely no problem in getting it in the US. The only thing is that it's not required for a huge majority of hypothyroid patients, so most docs don't prescribe it.

By the way, T3 (cytomel) is also easily available in the US. But as far as I know, not available in India.

[lejhoom]

Originally Posted by KPGB

Might be OT -

Can anyone recommend a good overseas consultant for Australia/Canada - I am looking for options and anyone with prior good experience with any of the consultants, please suggest.

Thanks

I know someone here in Hyderabad who is a MARA agent, Mr Prasad. You can call him on 9959992458. Please do due diligence before availing the services.

[VLOCT]

Are we seriously comparing the quality of life between India and the West? Really. I love India, too. But, mainly because of my friends and family. And because since, I do come from what I would call upper middle class in India, I can afford to avoid a lot of misery ordinary people go thru. I did not find the much ballyhooed superiority of the Indian culture over the rest of the world. It's difficult to talk about superiority, when we can walk over dead bodies lying on an Indian railway platform and not even look at it. Or, when no one will lift a finger to help an accident victim lying on the road and watch him bleed to death. Just two examples of our daily life. Cultural superiority, indeed.. I do not have any such illusions.

A simple example is how one hear Indian women talk about how much easier life was in India because they could get household help. I wonder if they realize that, what they're saying is that in order for them to have a comfortable life, an entire section of the society needs to be subservient. I hope that section also become middle class as soon as possible, just to see these same women go back and realize that they have to do all the chores themselves. I bet they would say how comfortable and easy life was in the west.

Patriotism and liberty are wonderful. Wonder what all the patriots that went back to India felt about liberty, when their businesses that were built on an entire life saving goes up in flames or destruction, when their so compassionate compatriots decides to go on a rampage because their favorite leader got arrested for murder or some other corruption. One reason I'm glad I live here, is that if any tries that here, he'll have my Glock, S&W, Colt and a whole lot of other nasties shoved thru every orifice in his body.

Luckily, lot of people have stopped living in LALA land a long time ago. You can see them by the thousands lining up outside various embassies.

I wonder why people just don't say that they like to live in India or the West, period. Stop justifying the reason for that. Trying to convince people that quality of life in India is better than in the West typically means that, the person has enough resources to insulate themselves from the rest of the Indian society. Nothing wrong with that but, that's what it means.

The quality of life for the Indian middle class, in general, to match the current western standard is still decades away, if it is even achievable. For the poor, I think it's a century away. I sincerely hope I'm wrong though. There is no guarantee that the west will continue to maintain the current standards. But for countries like US, Canada and Australia, the sheer size and resources will keep them going for a long time, I believe. I'm not so sure about Europe and Japan, though.