[chennai-indian]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Here we go dividing people into classes!!

<SARCASM>
Does being a class 1 citizen mean seeing 1/3rd of your salary go into a black hole? Or does being a class 1 citizen mean getting stuck in a traffic jam while you or your loved one is lying in the ambulance waiting to get to the hospital? Or maybe it means having your cellphone and wallet stolen while you lie bleeding to death in a car accident.

No no wait. I got it. Being a class 1 citizen means being first in line to get trampled upon by anyone ranging from auto driver to the country's politicians.
</SARCASM>

Actually No and by the way, I do see your "Sarcasm" header.

I have stayed in many countries including US where I had a chance to get green card. However, I chose to come back to India mainly because I felt that wherever I went, I was being treated as an "outsider" but in my country, I'm accepted for what I'am. You may scoff at 2nd class citizenship bit but then it was a reality for me.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by chennai-indian

Actually No and by the way, I do see your "Sarcasm" header.

I have stayed in many countries including US where I had a chance to get green card. However, I chose to come back to India mainly because I felt that wherever I went, I was being treated as an "outsider" but in my country, I'm accepted for what I'am. You may scoff at 2nd class citizenship bit but then it was a reality for me.

Most of the times the reason for feeling like an outsider results from your own inability to adapt to your local environment.

There were times when I felt like an outsider in Bangalore because I didn't know the local language. There were times when I felt like an outsider in Gurgaon because although I knew the local language, I didn't have any local "contacts"

And certainly the lady from north east in bangalore did not feel like an Indian when the traffic cop abused her for not knowing kannada.

Just being an Indian did not work for me when it came to not feeling like an outsider. So I thought I might as well move somewhere where even though I may not be a "native" I will atleast have some return on my taxes and my family's life will be treated with equal importance by atleast the first responders.

[faustus77]

Hi everybody.
Just a few stray thoughts.
You have problems everywhere no two ways about it.
But a few things that you take for granted are sorely lacking here.
In Shri Vajpayee's(our ex PM) words:water,electricity and roads.
How many of us have uninterrupted supply of electricity?
The lucky few who stay in Bombay island city(I am one of them).
Water and roads,no need to elaborate.
Buying a house of your own:A study conducted mentioned that it takes 30 years of earnings to buy a place here in India compared to 10 years in most of the places.(Prempting a different opinion,somebody working in south Bombay and drawing a 6 figure salary will not buy a place 50 kms away)
Quite a lot of you will start looking for educational institutions for your children.Would it be easy?
All my life(I am 68+) I have paid every conceivable tax on every type of goods/service. On top of all these income tax too.After retiring I am on my own.There is no such thing as a security net.
I hope things change for the better.Only thing we can do is keep our fingers crossed.
Regards

[CaliAtenza]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Most of the times the reason for feeling like an outsider results from your own inability to adapt to your local environment.

There were times when I felt like an outsider in Bangalore because I didn't know the local language. There were times when I felt like an outsider in Gurgaon because although I knew the local language, I didn't have any local "contacts"

And certainly the lady from north east in bangalore did not feel like an Indian when the traffic cop abused her for not knowing kannada.

Just being an Indian did not work for me when it came to not feeling like an outsider. So I thought I might as well move somewhere where even though I may not be a "native" I will atleast have some return on my taxes and my family's life will be treated with equal importance by atleast the first responders.

During a lot of the time I spent in India, I felt like an outsider, simply because I was born and brought up in the US. Just because I wasn't born in India doesn't make me any less Indian, yet people thought I didn't belong. Just because my accent is different than how people speak in Bangalore, doesn't give people the excuse to make fun of it. My family is from Karnataka and I can speak Kannada quite fluently, yet I still felt like I didn't belong at times.

[lapsi]

Originally Posted by faustus77

All my life(I am 68+) I have paid every conceivable tax on every type of goods/service. On top of all these income tax too.After retiring I am on my own.There is no such thing as a security net.

I can sense your refrain in this post. Thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts.

Our ex Finance Minister PC was only interested in levying new taxes. He would search for various taxes levied all over the world to levy them in India but he did not bother to find out the social security provided by countries levying high taxes.

In India, you get absolutely nothing in return from the State after paying a life time of taxes. And at times you are not even aware of the taxes that you pay. A good example would be that 80% of the cost of petrol and diesel is taxes but the common man believes that he is getting a subsidy due to Govt. propaganda.

Originally Posted by faustus77

I hope things change for the better. Only thing we can do is keep our fingers crossed.

We can hope but we know in the heart of our hearts that it is never going to happen. Things will only get worse.

Consider this:

• In the 60 years from 1950 to 2010 our population has grown by 85 crores.
• In the first 30 years it grew by 32.50 crores and by 52.50 crores in the next 30 years.
• The average number of children per family is still 3.
• About 40% of our population is still illiterate.
• The educated are having one child and the illiterates make up the rest of the average. Imagine the dilution in the quality of the population.
• 50% of our population is below the age of 25.
• In the next 30 years our population could have added another 75 crores and our population could be at 200 crores by 2040.

One should read on the ill effects of high population for a better idea of the things to come.

Those who are optimistic despite these facts should go on signing "Mera Bharat Mahaan" but those who can see the writing on the wall and have to ability to save themselves should do so.

Cheers!

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by VLOCT

Everyone talks about adaptation when emigrating but, does not realize the difficulty it poses for lot of emigrants. Some people do it easily, some never will, pining for their motherland after living for decades in their host country. You can call it sacrifice or by any other term, to me it's essentially a wasted life time.

Life is to be savoured, not to be regretted. If someone finds life unbearable in India or in any other country, find a better pasture, if you can. Don't waste your life time trying to convince yourself that, you're bearing it for some higher cause. Unless you're willing to be a dedicated social worker with a cause, there is no such cause for you. The chances are, you'll be as miserable ten years from now as you're today.

This is extremely well said. I totally agree on the part that life is to be lived. If you are really finding it hard to live even in India and think you will have a better life elsewhere, it is best to move on. Make all required research and move out. For me, there is no point discussing on values, morality etc - it is just different cultures!

[mohit]

Originally Posted by VLOCT

The basic tenet of emigration to an other country should be the willingness to accept the good that culture offers and recognize the negatives of that needs to be steered clear off. Most unhappy emigrants I have seen here have the problem that, even when they've identified the good and bad, refusal to accept them because these values do not match the values of their native culture. And because of human nature, there are simply no easy solutions to overcome these problems.

Emigration will be tough for people with very strong influences of their native culture, and if they keep forcing their native values and constantly belittle the host country's cultural values on the next generation for whom this is essentially their motherland, the probability of rebellion from their kids will be very high. You can see the evidence in such families where their kids live two lives, one at home and a completely different one outside. Not a good situation.

Everyone talks about adaptation when emigrating but, does not realize the difficulty it poses for lot of emigrants. Some people do it easily, some never will, pining for their motherland after living for decades in their host country. You can call it sacrifice or by any other term, to me it's essentially a wasted life time.

Life is to be savoured, not to be regretted. If someone finds life unbearable in India or in any other country, find a better pasture, if you can. Don't waste your life time trying to convince yourself that, you're bearing it for some higher cause. Unless you're willing to be a dedicated social worker with a cause, there is no such cause for you. The chances are, you'll be as miserable ten years from now as you're today.

Thanks! This is the short and sweet answer to all that's been asked or implied in this thread.
We can go on and on about values, first class citizenship and what not but the bottom line will always be - the conditions where you are and your ability to move/adapt to a new place.

[NinadJoshi]

Originally Posted by VLOCT

The basic tenet of emigration to an other country should be the willingness to accept the good that culture offers and recognize the negatives of that needs to be steered clear off. Most unhappy emigrants I have seen here have the problem that, even when they've identified the good and bad, refusal to accept them because these values do not match the values of their native culture. And because of human nature, there are simply no easy solutions to overcome these problems.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by NinadJoshi

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Well put!

My wife and I have lived in four different countries during our marriage of soon 29 years. Barbados, England/Scotland, United States, currently India. I was born and raised in the Netherlands. First move abroad was to the UK when I was about 26 years old.

The reason why we have moved around has always been jobs. Initially my wife's job and later because of my jobs. Moving from the Netherlands to the UK is properly quite different then moving from India to say the States. If anything I can at least claim to have experienced moving from the US to India.

So the reason for us emigrating might have been somewhat different than for some in this thread. Still for many emigrants job and income is a big factor.

In all a number of fundamentals applies.

The ones we have picked up over the years:
- Never be judgmental about your new home country. Don't think in terms or better or worse than your old home country. It's just different, and take it for what it's worth.

- Ensure you do more than just work in your new home country. Have a (social) life!

- People who emigrate because of wanting to get away from all sort of things they don't like in their original home country are likely to be disappointed. Those that emigrate because they genuinely want to have a new overall experience are more likely to make it into a success.

- Don't take a different language to lightly. If you plan to stay for a longer period invest in learning the local language. If you want to have a social life, speaking the local language is crucial in most countries. Or you get stuck with Expads or people from your old home country. Getting stuck with other expads is not necessarily a bad thing. Because at least you get to know a whole lot of different people. Emigrate and only mingle with former fellow country man is something I never understood. I have never ever joined any Dutch club/forum in all those years living abroad. It just doesn't make sense to me.

- there are always practical considerations not to emigrate. The kids have just started a new school, parents are getting on etc. Life is like that, but if you don't find a way to deal with it, you will never ever emigrate. There's always some practical issue to deal with.

It's very likely that we might have to move at least once or twice more, before retiring. Most likely we will retire in the UK, that is if we can afford it by then.

I work for a big multinational. Especially in the States I had lots of colleagues that came from India. I know quite a few who lived in the US for many years, had green cards or became US citizens, but still decided to move back to India after many years in the US. I don't have any statistics on it, just my own experience in my own circle of colleagues and friends. I don't think that should put anybody off though. If you approach emigration as a big adventure, something to enrich your life, you'll be fine. And even so, if you decide to come back after a number of years, nobody can take that experience away from you!

Enjoy,

Jeroen

[subs]

Hi Jeroen

Now that you have lived in 4 different countries and finally moved back to India, what is the experience like of being back.

In terms of yourself, was it difficult to adjust to things back home, how was it for your wife and children, did they find it difficult to adjust to the different style of living and were they able to accept it and move on?

Subs

[carboy]

Originally Posted by subs

Hi Jeroen

Now that you have lived in 4 different countries and finally moved back to India, what is the experience like of being back.

In terms of yourself, was it difficult to adjust to things back home, how was it for your wife and children, did they find it difficult to adjust to the different style of living and were they able to accept it and move on?

Subs

From his post it seems as if he has moved to India, not moved 'back' to India - i.e. he is Dutch, not Indian.

[shankar.balan]

I would not mind moving abroad if only to enjoy public systems that work, zero level corruption or at least less visible corruption and a better quality of community living and quality of life overall.
However, I am a proud Indian and I love my country despite all its foibles. Yes it could be better but wherever one lives and whatever one does, it is human nature to crib.
I love my pet dogs and will not be able to go away and move abroad if I cant take them with me. I also like the fact that in India one can enjoy the services of first class domestic help even if one is not part of the financial elite of the country. Places like the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, Fiji, South Africa etc are highly desirable but may not actually work out for me because of the quarantine laws there - my dogs cannot be sitting in quarantine for 3 months or whatever because they will pine away. Hence I guess I can consider such a step only after they have buzzed off to the great hunting grounds in the sky...
Having said all this, even though I have hit my 4th decade of life, I may still consider emigration as a possibility and keep visiting India every now and then.
One cannot plan these things to a T, lets just wait and see!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by carboy

From his post it seems as if he has moved to India, not moved 'back' to India - i.e. he is Dutch, not Indian.

Correct!
Just to clarify; India is not back home for me nor my wife. India will
be our home country for the next 3-5 years or so. We've only just
arrived!

My wife and I have been brought up and lived in a number of different
countries. India is the one that is far more different from any of
our experiences so far. Even Barbados, though still a developing
country is in many ways very 'westernized'. Everybody speak English (sort of) and everything is organised in a very similar fashion as in Western Europe or the USA. Just a more pleasant climate!

We probably do have a slightly different outlook on when we move to a
new country compared to some of our forum members. We move because of
a job and we know that it's going to be for a certain number of years. It's
not as if we decide up front that this is where we are going to live
for the rest of our lifes. So, if anything, it being sort of temporary
might also make it a easier to put up with certain aspects that are
less appealing in that a particular country.

You think Indian bureaucracy is bad? Well, wait until you have to visit the DMV in Kansas or Missouri. Or open an bank account in the UK, without having proof of residence. Or for that matter, try and register a car in the Netherlands without being resident.

One of the hardest things of living abroad, no matter what, is that we do miss our three (adult) children, family and friends. Of course, these days with Skype, facebook and all it is a lot easier to stay in touch, but still.

Actually from that perspective India is a little easier than when we lived in Kansas City, USA. The time difference is less, which makes calling/skyping a lot more convenient. Also, it's a lot easier and cheaper to go back to the Netherlands. Daily KLM flight Delhi-Amsterdam.

We do enjoy our new life in Delhi. We are only just about to settle in. We've lived in a hotel for nearly four months before we got our own apartment. Dealing with all the workman, utilities etc. is certainly a new experience.

Lots of stuff very different from the various countries we lived in. Lots of stuff to get very frustrated about. Sometimes we do but it doesn't change anything. So we just smile and say, oh well that's India for you. I've maintained a website whilst we were living the USA. I've started a site for our Indian adventure. Allows me to enjoy one of my hobbies, photography and write about all our new experiences, wonderful or the not so wonderful.

Jeroen

[veyron_head]

Has someone explored the EU blue card scheme? Looks like a good deal to me. But as of now there are only a few EU countries participating: Netherlands, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech republic etc. The biggest advantage I see is that you need a job first to be able to emigrate and so the consultant you work with should be able to get you a job first and then process your blue card visa, Unlike in countries like Australia and Canada where you first get the PR and then scout for jobs.

Another advantage is that after 2 years of working in the country where you get a job, you can move around to any participating country if you can find work there.

What do you guys think?

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by veyron_head

Has someone explored the EU blue card scheme? Looks like a good deal to me. But as of now there are only a few EU countries participating: Netherlands, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech republic etc. The biggest advantage I see is that you need a job first to be able to emigrate and so the consultant you work with should be able to get you a job first and then process your blue card visa, Unlike in countries like Australia and Canada where you first get the PR and then scout for jobs.

Another advantage is that after 2 years of working in the country where you get a job, you can move around to any participating country if you can find work there.

What do you guys think?

Germany has introduced it since July 2012. I have posted the links in this forum (some other thread, I don't remember where!). Its easier said than done. First, manage to get a job without a PR/Employment permit (that's my dear friend, atleast in Germany is an herculian task). Accepted that its easier for lads who do their postgraduation in EU and wish to stay here. They do get preference over the lads applying from abroad.
Some links for you:

http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...nnette-schavan