[Samurai]

Generally I am very wary of dealing with unknown vendors for any product. But sometimes it can't be avoided. Here is one deal that went bad...

In my office we have a three year old Polycom SoundStation2W system with two extra mics, which we are using for our conference needs. And we are not entirely happy with this setup. Meanwhile, our US office staff use the Polycom SoundStation VTX-1000 and are very happy with it.

Therefore, I was asked to purchase the same system. I was told that when two SoundStation VTX 1000 conference phones connect on opposite ends of a call, the phones automatically connect in Polycom HD Voice, resulting in extraordinary fidelity. So I was to buy the exact model and nothing else.

http://www.polycom.com/global/docume..._datasheet.pdf

Now, this is not a product one can buy in the store. We checked with our regular hardware dealer and he was not an authorized dealer for Polycom, so he couldn't help. So we approached Polycom India directly and they suggested a Bangalore based authorized dealer called Online Instruments India Private Limited.

www.onlineinstruments.co.in - Home Page

First let's look at the cost, this is right from the vendor quote:

Polycom make extendable Analog audio conference equipment with extendable mics (Model No: SS2 Ex) = Rs.36500 + VAT
Polycom make extendable Analog audio conference equipment with extendable mics and sub woofer (Model No: VTX 1000) = Rs.65000 + VAT

The addition of the subwoofer alone kicks up the price by Rs.28500 to the original system. But we already have a system without sub-woofer, which we are trying to retire. So we had no choice but order the VTX 1000 because we needed the sub-woofer to make the Polycom HD Voice magic to happen.

And then the drama started....

Online Instruments India Private Limited wanted 100% payment in advance. Thanks to prior experience, I hate paying any advance let alone 100% advance to anybody before the product is delivered. Polycom had recommended only one authorized dealer, and that dealer insisted on 100% advance saying we are a new customer. However, they promised delivery in 7 days upon receiving payment. Since Polycom is a major corporation and Online Instruments India Private Limited was recommended by them, I finally relented and paid the 100% advance payment of Rs.67600 (65K + 4% VAT) along with the purchase order on Feb 22nd 2010.

One week later we promptly received the delivery along with an invoice for the amount of 61,360 (59K + 4% VAT). And there was no sub-woofer! Of course, it was confusing at first. Upon checking with the vendor we were told that the sub-woofer was not in stock, so they invoiced us only for the main system and extended microphones.

Now if you think about it, the Polycom system (SS2 Ex) without subwoofer costs just 36500. But I have to pay 59K for VTX1000 without subwoofer? No subwoofer means, no Polycom HD Voice, and I wouldn't even have bothered ordering it. Who decided the subwoofer is only 6K worth? As I have initially noted, the subwoofer alone kicked up the price up 28.5K.

Therefore we told them it is not acceptable. We asked them to either deliver the whole system or refund the money. They said the subwoofer is out of stock, so we'll have to wait. Meanwhile they asked us to start using the system as is. By this time I had become very suspicious about the deal and asked my staff not to use it until we get the subwoofer. If we have to return, I didn't want to return a used system. So it has remained in the box since then. To sprinkle salt over the wound, they also told us that the warranty starts on the day (March 1st 2010) we received the partial system. In other words, two months of warranty over on the system we are yet to receive fully.

Next 2-3 weeks were spent in email tug-of war between my accountant and an employee from Online Instruments India Private Limited. Strangely enough both had same first name and last name, so it was very confusing to follow that email chain.

Finally the Manoj Kumar from Online Instruments India Private Limited says this on March 17th 2010:

Sorry for the inconvenience caused to you.
This is to inform you that we are out stock since last three months .
This is going to take another 15-20 days time we are waiting for the material since last three months.

This was the first confirmation that they had lied in their quotation. They had promised 7 day delivery when they were out of stock for 3 months. Now it is May and the material has not yet materialized.

By this time we had involved Polycom India and they were part of the email chain. And they added Ingram Micro contacts too into the email chain. So I finally joined the email battle and sent a notice to Online Instruments India Private Limited to either deliver the subwoofer or refund the money by the last week of March.

Ahem, nothing happened by end of March. By this time, through our conversations with Polycom contacts, we had realized that the subwoofer is truly out of stock in India. That means Online Instruments India Private Limited has no chance of delivering it anytime soon. That means refund is the only option left, so we pushed for that. Considering how they had lied in the quotation in the first place, I had no intention of returning the partial system without getting the refund first. So we asked them to refund the 100% amount first and then we will we return the box as we received it. After that nothing has happened for an entire month. Our emails are not answered, phones rarely reach them, they are always out, etc, etc.

Finally we threatened that we will approach consumer court. In response to that, one Mr.Avinash of Online Instruments India Private Limited told us rather casually to go ahead and do it. Looks like they have no concerns about it. Probably they have been this path many times and have no fear of legal threats. Polycom doesn't seem to have much leverage with this rogue dealer.

In a nutshell, I am in a bind. Here is a deadbeat vendor who can neither be forced by the manufacturer (Polycom) nor scared by legal threat to do the right thing. So, what are my practical options?

We are a tiny company, therefore I don't think we can get into prolonged legal battle over Rs.67600/- wasting lot more time and money. I want a quick closure so that we can move on to other solutions.

Is consumer court applicable in this case considering this is a business-to-business deal? If it is applicable, how fast we will be able to settle, and at what cost?

[phamilyman]

Just curious - why not try for sending the box back as is thru some good office boy/responsible person to bengaluru and collecting a cheque for the said amount?

[aargee]

Not sure as I'm left speechless reading this & that too from a reputed company like Polycom.

I was once cheated when I bought a car from a reputed used dealer for about 5K; unfortunately I realized it only after a week & when I hinted to him about consumer forum, he asked me to proceed & he could deal with it. But a friend of mine gave me a suggestion that I'll not be able to do much with whatever has happened, but to try & find some compromise. Finally we found a deal that the dealer paid NCB for me.

Second incidence is with ABN Amro which was a clear cut mistake from them & they too admitted in writing that it was their mistake. Due to their carelessness, I had a loss to a tune of 19K. Having learned from my past lesson & member of local consumer association, I decided to teach ABN Amro a lesson. I wrote them back through our consumer association & they never gave up. I wrote an email to Minstry of consumer affairs; to my surprise someone from the ministry also wrote to them asking for explanation. As usual white collar guy from ABN Amro wrote in confusing English only to state that they will not do anything.

Finally when I decided upon filing the case, I've lost about 11 months in the entire drama above (You know everyone takes their own sweet time to response especially when they're at mistake) So our president of our association said clearly two things...
1. Be prepared to take a leave for one day in a month to go to court & be prepared to spend from 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM on that day
2. In the present scenario it will take anywhere between 16-18 months to get the judgment though they're supposed to finish in 90 days

Till date I know very well I could've appealed for 10L for mental agony & 19K of my refund & I could've very well afforded for one of those CBU motorcycles or a top line Innova. Working in IT has got its own pros & cons. When the judge adjourns a date for next month, somehow my boss might know (may be telepathy) & he'll have an important delivery for the day & I cannot imagine working from the court premises. So I decided to drop the case.

Though these are no way a solution to you, I'm just sharing this to let you know how to get prepared, incase you decide to fight. IMHO, if possible, you can opt for some compromise with help of a mediator or a good lawyer. You don't need to disclose to Online Instruments that you're bringing a lawyer, but someone who knows how to negotiate well can help you. Fighting, taking it court takes its own sweet time & I cannot imagine how many sleepless night you've to spend in anxiety.

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Just curious - why not try for sending the box back as is thru some good office boy/responsible person to bengaluru and collecting a cheque for the said amount?

Yeah, I initially thought about that too. But then, that will be another headache; what happens if that guy says, I don't have money now? Or the worst case, Online Instruments simply keeps quiet. Samurai will not only lose money but also the commodity. Even if the courier sent is shown as proof, Online Instrument can cook up some good story stating that was a faulty instrument & we're in the process of replacing.

[milestogo]

Trying reputational damage is an option -
Write reviews about the product on as many public forums as possible ( including US ones) and mail senior guys in the company with the URL. Take the names of specific people you've dealt with in these letters.

Even though this is B2B, you are still a consumer of their product. You can till approach the consumer court - which I think you should.

[StarVegabond]

Hi Sharath

This seems to be a classic case of multiple partners being in value chain(Polycomm-->ingram micro --> on instruments) or ingram micro replacing On instruments as the dealers in India. you may check with polycam about it.

secondly the e-mail battle and too much escalation has drained the energy.

I would go with the solution shared by Phamilyman, it is better some one handcarry this to the ON, deliver it and collect the cheque. you may talk to them beforehand to ensure that they are available when you visit them.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Just curious - why not try for sending the box back as is thru some good office boy/responsible person to bengaluru and collecting a cheque for the said amount?

Why would they have a cheque waiting for me? I don't have any goons in my employment unlike ICICI bank.

Originally Posted by aargee

Not sure as I'm left speechless reading this & that too from a reputed company like Polycom.

Here the cheating party is not Polycom, but the authorised dealer recommended by them. Polycom Sales Manager for KN & KL area has been trying his best to resolve the situation, but the item is simply not available. Regarding the refund, the dealer rep has asked us to go ahead with legal action. Obviously, they are not scared of either Polycom or consumer courts.

Originally Posted by aargee

Finally when I decided upon filing the case, I've lost about 11 months in the entire drama above (You know everyone takes their own sweet time to response especially when they're at mistake) So our president of our association said clearly two things...
1. Be prepared to take a leave for one day in a month to go to court & be prepared to spend from 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM on that day
2. In the present scenario it will take anywhere between 16-18 months to get the judgment though they're supposed to finish in 90 days

Till date I know very well I could've appealed for 10L for mental agony & 19K of my refund & I could've very well afforded for one of those CBU motorcycles or a top line Innova. Working in IT has got its own pros & cons. When the judge adjourns a date for next month, somehow my boss might know (may be telepathy) & he'll have an important delivery for the day & I cannot imagine working from the court premises. So I decided to drop the case.

Exactly why I am wary of the legal channel. The amount of 67.6K isn't worth losing years of mental peace, effort and time.

Originally Posted by milestogo

Trying reputational damage is an option -
Write reviews about the product on as many public forums as possible ( including US ones) and mail senior guys in the company with the URL. Take the names of specific people you've dealt with in these letters.

There is nothing wrong with the product, it is the dealer of product who is the erring party. I have been using Polycom products since the 90s, can't say I have much to crib about. I just wanted to upgrade to a higher end system for better clarity. I am not blaming Polycom for this fiasco, so there is no point going after them. The Online Instruments India Private Limited on the other hand doesn't seem to care about their reputation since they are ready to ignore Polycom or the courts. I suspect that the online reputation damage will not have no impact on them. I don't think B2B buyers check online reputation of a vendor before purchasing. They will merely go by manufacturer's recommendation on authorized dealers. Therefore I think I will strongly recommend to Polycom via email/phone to drop Online Instruments India Private Limited as a dealer. It is for their own good. One rogue dealer can tarnish the reputation of the product lot more than competitors.

Originally Posted by milestogo

Even though this is B2B, you are still a consumer of their product. You can till approach the consumer court - which I think you should.

After reading the experience of aargee in consumer court above, it looks like consumer court is no quicker than regular court. Sheesh, why is justice so difficult to obtain in our courts.

Originally Posted by StarVegabond

I would go with the solution shared by Phamilyman, it is better some one handcarry this to the ON, deliver it and collect the cheque. you may talk to them beforehand to ensure that they are available when you visit them.

On phone they have refused to refund and asked us to go ahead with legal action. They have been careful not reply any emails on refund. So what is the point in hand carrying the item to their office. They might dodge the person as easily as dodging the email or phone.

[zaks]

I am surprised at this behaviour by that dealer. But since you say Polycom is invloved in this thread if they are astute they should send you the required subwoofer themselves and not point finger at their lousy dealer. Why don't you ask them for that product to be sent directly to you for free or bill the dealer.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Here the cheating party is not Polycom, but the authorised dealer recommended by them. Polycom Sales Manager for KN & KL area has been trying his best to resolve the situation, but the item is simply not available. Regarding the refund, the dealer rep has asked us to go ahead with legal action. Obviously, they are not scared of either Polycom or consumer courts.

The dealer is appointed by Polycom & Polycom knows about this attitude of dealer & still they keep quiet right? This is same like Harish's case where Skoda knew about Numereins attitude; finally when things went beyond their control, they cancelled the dealership. Why don't Polycom simply put their foot down & say to Online Instruments that this is not the way to do the business? Or why not Polycom buy back the instrument from dealer? The dealer doesn't want to take it from you because he knows Polycom will not take it back right?

Originally Posted by Samurai

Exactly why I am wary of the legal channel. The amount of 67.6K isn't worth losing years of mental peace, effort and time.

Err...I'm bad in understanding. Are you saying mental peace, effort & time are more important than 67K?

Originally Posted by Samurai

After reading the experience of aargee in consumer court above, it looks like consumer court is no quicker than regular court. Sheesh, why is justice so difficult to obtain in our courts.

Trust me, this is the case in Chennai. Our consumer association president is 87 yrs old & is a very straight forward person & his experience is something to be trusted simply by words. So that's the reason I said, it takes so much time. Did you know that the RTI also doesn't respond back in 30 days & they simply say they're unable to fulfil the requirements in 30 days & have an attitude of "this is all I can do"

Originally Posted by Samurai

On phone they have refused to refund and asked us to go ahead with legal action. They have been careful not reply any emails on refund. So what is the point in hand carrying the item to their office. They might dodge the person as easily as dodging the email or phone.

Well, then, can you send a new registered RPAD (no email, so that you can get an official acknowledgement) stating the issue & asking for refund & state that you expect a reply in 10 days otherwise proceed to court. It might not shake them, if they're already experienced with this.
But again, if you're like me, where if you think peace of mind is more important, then, I would suggest a mediator or lawyer to handle this & keep moving up to the top most person who's the owner or investor for this dealership?
My Wifey was asking a different question. There're no relation between both the models? Instead of VTX 1000, if something like SS2 or SS220 or SS25 or SS3, then you could've related both. But, these two look entirely different range of models, SS2 & VTX1000. Probably some improvement has been incorporated in VTX1000. What prompted you to feel that the subwoofer alone kicks up the price by Rs.28500? You may want to try VTX1000 without subwoofer & see how it performs, what if you're satisfied with the sound quality that you get? - Just trying to help you know?
OT - You know martial arts right? Don't you feel like thrashing the owner?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by zaks

I am surprised at this behaviour by that dealer. But since you say Polycom is invloved in this thread if they are astute they should send you the required subwoofer themselves and not point finger at their lousy dealer. Why don't you ask them for that product to be sent directly to you for free or bill the dealer.

Even Polycom doesn't have the item, so they can't deliver it. Dealer promised delivery within 7 days despite knowing that the item is out-of-stock, and took 100% advance. Now they are refusing refund.

Originally Posted by aargee

Err...I'm bad in understanding. Are you saying mental peace, effort & time are more important than 67K?

Yes. I am not willing to run behind courts and lawyers for years just to recover 67.6K. There are enough civil law suits in my extended family which have been running for 10+ years with no end in sight.

Originally Posted by aargee

My Wifey was asking a different question. There're no relation between both the models? Instead of VTX 1000, if something like SS2 or SS220 or SS25 or SS3, then you could've related both. But, these two look entirely different range of models, SS2 & VTX1000. Probably some improvement has been incorporated in VTX1000. What prompted you to feel that the subwoofer alone kicks up the price by Rs.28500? You may want to try VTX1000 without subwoofer & see how it performs, what if you're satisfied with the sound quality that you get? - Just trying to help you know?

So far nobody has told me that Polycom HD voice will work without the sub-woofer. Besides, I am still nursing hope that refund will happen, so it will remain in the box for a while. If the refund doesn't happen, and Polycom isn't able to find a sub-woofer, I will consider getting a sub-woofer from US if it is available as standalone.

Legal path looks too complicated for now, not planning on pursuing it.

Originally Posted by aargee

OT - You know martial arts right? Don't you feel like thrashing the owner?

Martial arts or self defense is useful while dealing with a robber who robs at knife point. But for a robber who robs at invoice point, there is nothing martial arts can do.

[Sankar]

Samurai, check the following link. Polycom VTX1000 comes in different configurations, w/o subwoofers/external mics and with subwoofers/mics. They invoiced you Rs.61360/- for the console and extended mics. Comparing this price to the polycom store price, you have got a better deal. In their online store VTX1000 console, w/o ex mic/sub, is priced at $1399, which approximates to Rs.62889/-

PolyCom Online Store - SoundStation VTX 1000

[Rocky_Balboa]

Sharat,

Looks like these guys have a huge list of clientele ranging from ITs like Wipro, Infy, IBM, Intel to Taj Hotels and Prestige Group.

1) What position does Mr. Avinash hold? Would it not be possible to talk to the higher-ups.
2) Folks working for any of the above IT companies, can find which person they deal with and help You out.
3) Send a link to this thread to all these clientele.

[amitk26]

Dear Samurai,

Subwoofer is not what makes a system as HD or non-HD. The HD part of an audio conferencing system has more to do with the bandwidth used and the codecs in question. Using wideband codecs instead of speech coodecs ( restricted to 4Khz ) is required for making a system HD, The change in codecs means change in DSP decoding them and also change in Amplifier to faithfully reproduce the broader spectrum ( This include licencing costs of codecs and chipsets ) and thus the cost of equipment goes up.


You need a new equipment for HD sound because the codecs and related logic is built in to the polycom equipment. A subwooofer strictly has no part to play in this except to produce sounds below 80 Hz.

A sub-woofer is a passive element that is just a speaker with bigger diaphragm ( usually 8inch or bigger) to re-produce lower frequencies.
Cost of sub-woofer will go up if it has a built in amplifier such as plate amplifier so check the specification from Polycon and decide an approximate costs.

However since you placed an order for full equipment with Sub-Woofer dealer should have informed and thus this is case of misinformation/cheating.

Since you have invested money and do not want to fight it out in courts I would suggest you start using the equipment as It will give you HD quality. In case you are missing on the lower frequencies you can install an aftermarket sub-woofer with same rating as polycon provided one.
I am sure that a sub-woofer of same specification will cost you much less in open market. Talk to a local audio shop

Reagrds
Amit

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Rocky_Balboa

Sharat,

Looks like these guys have a huge list of clientele ranging from ITs like Wipro, Infy, IBM, Intel to Taj Hotels and Prestige Group.

Don't let that client list impress you. Those clients are buying Polycom equipment, they don't care who they buy it from. Besides, I can bet none of those big companies pay any advance, let alone 100% percent, they would be paying after 30 days of delivery. So there is no chance of cheating them

Originally Posted by Rocky_Balboa

1) What position does Mr. Avinash hold? Would it not be possible to talk to the higher-ups.

Curiously, none of these chaps use their job title or even last name in the email communications. The MD of the company has been the most elusive, he apparently went to China and then somewhere else, but never available in office.

Originally Posted by amitk26

Subwoofer is not what makes a system as HD or non-HD. The HD part of an audio conferencing system has more to do with the bandwidth used and the codecs in question. Using wideband codecs instead of speech coodecs ( restricted to 4Khz ) is required for making a system HD, The change in codecs means change in DSP decoding them and also change in Amplifier to faithfully reproduce the broader spectrum ( This include licencing costs of codecs and chipsets ) and thus the cost of equipment goes up.

Since you have invested money and do not want to fight it out in courts I would suggest you start using the equipment as It will give you HD quality. In case you are missing on the lower frequencies you can install an aftermarket sub-woofer with same rating as polycon provided one.
I am sure that a sub-woofer of same specification will cost you much less in open market. Talk to a local audio shop

Hmm, looks like I have no other choice. I'll see whether I can get a subwoofer from US.

Alright. Thanks everybody, I think I'll start using the equipment as is for now. If we badly feel the need for subwoofer, I'll get one quickly from abroad.

I'll also write to Polycom recommending that they drop Online Instruments India Private Limited from their dealer list. This is will at least bring closure to this issue for me and I can move on.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Hmm, looks like I have no other choice. I'll see whether I can get a subwoofer from US.

Why from US exactly ? Check their specification on the speaker size and voice coil impedance and buy from local market. All you need is matching impedance.

IMHO you will never feel the need of Subwoofer until your clients in US are keen on showing you their drum playing skills

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Why from US exactly ? Check their specification on the speaker size and voice coil impedance and buy from local market. All you need is matching impedance.

I am hoping to get the exact Polycom subwoofer. If I use something else, I am not sure what will happen to the warranty.

Yes, I can use any subwoofer that matches the impedance. Let me think about it after I use the VTX1000 for a while.