[mclaren1885]

E_L, no matter how much experience you have behind your back a batsmen can still get out for a naught. A bowler with the highest wickets in Test/ODI can go with no wickets to his tally for a couple of matches. Experience only allows one to cope with things better or get a better understanding of the game, but there is no guarantee that IT WILL TAKE YOU THROUGH. Like I said what your mind tells you and what your body allows you to do is different. Besides, from your POV seems like these stalwarts should never get out? (atleast you make it sound thus). Lets take something closer back to our passion, cars. MS is a 7 time world champion, does that mean everytime he sits in the seat of a F1 car he has to get pole and a subsequent victory? Or that he can't loose the lead on the very last lap of the race just because he is used to winning?

All it takes to get rid of any stalwart is just one genuinely good ball or an atrocious shot. Which is just about the same that is required to get any ordinary batsmen out as well. That is the whole beauty of the game, the uncertainty. A guy on a double century can get out for a full blooded half volley trying to hit it over the park and misconnect. Or he can clobber a yorker to which he got out in the previous game out of the park. Besides, there is no standard rules on how to play a certain ball. Different people at different stages of their life at different club levels may play completely contrasting strokes to two very similar b@!!S (for eg a reverse sweep). Where the results might not exactly be identical.

How many times have we seen our top order fail and the rest just drop down like a pack of cards? Specially in the early 90's? Know why? Because back then our batting was a one man show, yes one that started with the Little Genius and ended with him too. Atleast things are changing now. We are no longer only dependent on him for runs. His early dismissals/ late in the innings is only but helping us groom youngsters to play a longish knock/crucial powerplays which can only benefit the team.

We did find good replacements to Jadeja & Robin Singh namely Yuvraj & Dhoni & Sehwag who can terrorize almost any bowling. But, also know that with such players comes the risk of getting out every ball due to their overambitious approach. Besides, what we need right now is technically correct, orthodox players. Have a look at our team composition. Filled with flashy, unorthodox players. How many can claim to have sound technique? Sachin, Dravid? Then? Such players will soon give their opposition ideas on how to tackle them, but its the players with sound technique who do good everywhere.

I do suggest you not look at only winning perspective, but learn to accept loss as well. They are all humans, who make mistakes. Its just a game, besides Sachin is a very intelligent cricketer. He will retire when he deems himself unfit. We ought to accept it. Besides I don't see anyone in the current domestic lineup who can replace him. Can you?

[MC Mayank]

1. anyone has any idea of when was the last time Sachin scored the highest against a top team and India went on to win the match? I would really like to know - It might make for an interesting stat.
2. Anyone noticed Sachin playing a little better without Sehwag in the team? I have always had a personal opinion about Sehwag's influence of Sachin since he came into the team. It could just be my imagination of course but well.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by MC Mayank

1. anyone has any idea of when was the last time Sachin scored the highest against a top team and India went on to win the match? I would really like to know - It might make for an interesting stat.

31st Jan 2007 against West Indies In Vadodra. A 100 of 110 ***** coming in at number 4.

2. Anyone noticed Sachin playing a little better without Sehwag in the team? I have always had a personal opinion about Sehwag's influence of Sachin since he came into the team. It could just be my imagination of course but well.

Sehwag does take a lot of unwanted attention from Sachin I must say, besides the tension for Sachin to perform when he is on the move. With his absence must say Sachin might have bigger responsibilities.

[rks]

Didn't see the game yesterday as I was driving to Mumbai (roads are getting treacherous now, with potholes suddenly appearing out of nowhere).

Sachin scored at a much more healthy rate in this game. If he can keep this up, no one would complain. But as E_L pointed out, SA were not at anywhere near their best. And Yuvraj Singh getting 3-36 in 9 overs? Not a very likely scenario, even if SA are bad against spin. But there is no point in suspecting match-fixing without any evidence.

I think the middle order is now more healthy-looking, with Yuvraj, Dhoni and Karthik present. And people like Powar and Piyush Chawla can throw the bat around at the lower order. If similarly some promising youngsters are given a break at the top order, they too can blossom. Of course I agree that an experienced player or two at the top can be of good use in stabilizing the batting in crises and can guide youngsters. But eventually they will have to get replaced as the younger players start feeling at home.

Here is where I see the problem -- our seniors just don't want to budge. Even when Yuvraj and Kaif were ready to take over the mantle, Ganguly, Tendulkar and Co. just wouldn't give them the opportunities at the top of the order; they would have to come in at No.6 and 7 with very few overs left.

[normally_crazy]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

Anyone noticed Kartik ? He had a strike rate higher than Yuvarj

No one noticed this ? Come on guys - these are the kind of selfless players we need in the team. Some one like Kaif , RS Sodhi (remember him ? )

Baaki our big guns boom only when they have a personal milestone in sight.

[normally_crazy]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

31st Jan 2007 against West Indies In Vadodra. A 100 of 110 ***** coming in at number 4.

McL - West Indies is a top team ?? Come on man.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

McL - West Indies is a top team ?? Come on man.

infact I was just telling the last time he had a highest score. Though WI may not be considered as a top team, any team can be lethal on a given day.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

Yes, yuvi played well too and good to see him back in form.

You kidding? One six and everything's forgotten?

When these guys started their partnership the required rate was in our favour - less than 5 per over. Over several overs Yuvraj managed to play and miss a couple of dozen deliveries, looking very 'iffy' out there in the middle when Nel and Ntini were bowling. He looked totally out of sorts, and managed to drag the required-rate to above 6 per over.

If it werent for Karthik pushing for singles and double on every other ball he (karthik) faced, we would've been in serious trouble.

And finally when a slower Kallis came out in the end to fill in the overs Yuvraj suddenly became a hero. How quickly we forget - within the space of a few overs!

Make no mistake - Yuvraj was looking patchy, rusty and totally out of sorts for 90% of his 'innings'.

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

No one noticed this ? Come on guys - these are the kind of selfless players we need in the team. Some one like Kaif , RS Sodhi (remember him ? )

Baaki our big guns boom only when they have a personal milestone in sight.

Of course, N_C, yuvraj was literally scratching around & living dangerously. He hit the jackpot with that 6, else it would have been a goner & karthik would have had to do all the scoring himself & i have no doubt that he would have.

[normally_crazy]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

You kidding? One six and everything's forgotten?

Make no mistake - Yuvraj was looking patchy, rusty and totally out of sorts for 90% of his 'innings'.

Yes I know - but unfortunately this is what happens everytime.

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by MC Mayank

1. anyone has any idea of when was the last time Sachin scored the highest against a top team and India went on to win the match? I would really like to know - It might make for an interesting stat.

Yeah, i know, i know, i remember, sometime in 1998, he singlehandedly won 2 matches for us against Australia in the desert, remember ? But that was a LONG time ago. almost 10 years ago, i think we are still living in that dream.

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

31st Jan 2007 against West Indies In Vadodra. A 100 of 110 ***** coming in at number 4.

LOL, MCL.

[MC Mayank]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

any team can be lethal on a given day.

Ok here come the moral science lectures . Well what I want to see is match winning knocks from Sachin. The trend has been positive of late. I don't want 100s. I want bowlers' hearts to be filled with the same dread and terror that they would experience in the years '96-'99 when Sachin would walk out to the centre. I also want him not to be justifying himself in front of the media (a bit of which he did with Rameez the pyjama Raza in yesterday's post match)

My reference to Sehwag was coz I feel Sehwag burdened Sachin's style a bit more. It was almost like Sachin felt it was his job to now play second fiddle. It has affected his flare and natural instinct to dominate the bowling, over the last 4 yrs or so.

And about the so called 'youngsters' taking responsibility and the 'seniors' moving out of their slots so the former can be promoted to the top order, I completely disagree. Yuvraj and Kaif were youngsters in 2002. 5 yrs down the line, commentators are still calling them youngsters. Responsiblity needs to be grabbed, not taken. You threw out a seasoned player like Ganguly eventually to find that he is back and is putting many ex cricketers, who were shouting obsenities in his direction from rooftops of tv channels for a bit of short change that they know they can't make elsewhere, to utter shame with his performances.
I would not look at a batting line up of gambhir uthappa yuvraj and dinesh with the same kind of awe that i would with a lineup made up of sachin ganguly dravid and laxman.Nor would the opposition. And sometimes, that can just be enough.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by rks

Didn't see the game yesterday

And Yuvraj Singh getting 3-36 in 9 overs? Not a very likely scenario, even if SA are bad against spin.

ROTFLMAO, so now only the stalwarts have to bat throughout the innings at a healthy rate and not leave it to the youngsters & only regular bowlers have a likely scenario of getting wickets (that too without seeing the game). Seriously, are you guys talking about the same game here? Cricket?

If similarly some promising youngsters are given a break at the top order, they too can blossom.

Wait, have you heard of Robin Uthappa, Gautham Gambhir, Murali Karthik, Suresh Raina, Amit Bhandari, HK.Badani, Vijay Dahiya, RS Sodhi, Dinesh Mongia, SS Das, Ajay Ratra, DD Gupta, Sanjay Bangar, Sarandeep Singh, T Yohannan, JP Yadav, PA Patel, Salvi, Mishra, AV Kale, Rohan Gavaskar, Joginder Sharma, SK Raina, Venugopala Roa, Munaf Patel, VRV Singh, Piyush Chawla, RP Sharma, I Sharma playing for the country as well? How many of these youngsters have done well to cement a permanent place? And you are blaming them for not giving them chances?

Here is where I see the problem -- our seniors just don't want to budge. Even when Yuvraj and Kaif were ready to take over the mantle, Ganguly, Tendulkar and Co. just wouldn't give them the opportunities at the top of the order; they would have to come in at No.6 and 7 with very few overs left.

Sure, go ahead. Check out the stats.

Yuvraj:
As opener : 2 Matches and 18 runs.
At number 3 : 7 Matches and 220 runs.
At number 4 : 30 Matches and 791 runs.

Kaif:
As opener : 1 Match and 24 runs.
At number 3 : 10 Matches and 379 runs.
At number 4 : 19 Matches and 517 runs.

As you see they were given chances to play up the order but they didn't cement their place like say a Saurav or a Sehwag did. Besides I guess no opposition would be scared to bowl to opening batsmen like Yuvraj & Kaif as compared to Sachin & Sehwag or Sachin & Ganguly or Ganguly & Sehwag. Irrespective of whether they are in form or not, there is always that chance of them coming good which most bowlers fear.

Infact, the very fact that Sachin agreed to play as low as Number 4 in itself showed that he was willing to give them an opportunity. But, it turned out to be a bad strategy which was corrected before the world cup.

Originally Posted by McMayank

My reference to Sehwag was coz I feel Sehwag burdened Sachin's style a bit more. It was almost like Sachin felt it was his job to now play second fiddle. It has affected his flare and natural instinct to dominate the bowling, over the last 4 yrs or so.

Very true, thats how the game is played. Two batsmen need to complement each other. Not compete with each other. Haven't you heard commentators say this countless number of times. Old school rule says hit a four or a six, take a single and get off the strike and relax for a bit. Otherwise anxiety and confidence (over at times) will make you play a rash shot.

Its just that earlier Sachin was everything or nothing of Indian cricket. Now there are others to take up and support the mantle as well. He is playing more cautiously (some times over) now. This happens, to everyone. With age you cut out the risk factor. Point in case, look at Ricky Pontings vs Sachins career.

2004: 9 mathces and 207 runs vs 6 matches and 281 runs.
2004/05: 15 matches and 626 runs vs 9 matches and 227 runs.
2005/2006: 10 matches and 303 runs vs 14 matches and 504 runs.
2006: 20 matches and 920 runs vs 1 match and 2 runs.
2006/2007: Sachin 21 matches and 699 runs.
2007: 28 matches and 1185 runs vs 3 matches and 196 runs.

See Ponting now. Still people consider him to be a deadly batsmen. There was a point where people would appreciate it if he managed to get to double figures for almost 2 seasons.

Also, if you look at the top scores in the game for this season Ganguly stands at Number 5 in the world after Hayden, Ponting, Jayawardena & Kallis. I see no point why we are complaining about not giving chance to youngsters. Where are the youngsters proving themselves? There is another old saying in cricket " If it ain't broken dont fix it".

That said I would love the Indian team to get back to this:

Batting: Sachin, Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid, Dhoni, Kaif, Karthik.
Bowling: Zaheer Khan, Harbhajan, Anil Kumble, Sreesant.
All Rounders: Yuvraj Singh, Irfan Pathan.
Bench Strength: Munaf Patel, Piyush Chawla, Robin Uthappa.

At this very moment I don't see any newcomer capable of making an inroad and stomping his authority. I would love to be proved wrong.

[rks]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

ROTFLMAO, so now only the stalwarts have to bat throughout the innings at a healthy rate and not leave it to the youngsters & only regular bowlers have a likely scenario of getting wickets (that too without seeing the game). Seriously, are you guys talking about the same game here? Cricket?

It is not just the wickets taken by Yuvraj; in one-day cricket, anybody can take wickets when the batsmen are pushing for runs. If Yuvraj had gone for, say, 60 runs in his 9 overs I would consider that as normal for a part-time bowler agianst a top international team. Yuvraj is an honest-to-God left arm slow bowler who doesn't turn the ball much and doesn't have too many tricks/variations in his bag. And it doesn't seem that the pitch was particularly helpful to the spinners either. Here is where SA lost the game.

There are probably many state-level teams in India and elsewhere that will give Yuvraj a frightful hammering on a normal pitch. Just think - a part-time spinner like Yuvraj can routinely be driven to long-off/long-on and taken for singles/twos, and if the field is brought up, can be hit over the top for fours and sixes; he simply does not have the fire-power to test an international team to the extent of 3-36 off 9 overs.

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

How many of these youngsters have done well to cement a permanent place? And you are blaming them for not giving them chances?

Many of these youngsters did flop. I don't think that Gambhir and Uthappa have the correct technique, though they are aggressive and fearless.

But Yuvraj and Kaif are in a different class altogether, and were hard done by when they were at their best. The stats you give below don't tell the full story and are not all that bad either. As Greg Chappell pointed out, these two were never given sustained opportunities and were shunted in and out of the team and up and down the order. When Ganguly was flopping royally, he would pull off phony stunts like bringing in Agarkar at No. 3 so that he could demote Yuvraj and Kaif still further. Kaif did come into favour briefly at the top of the order, but it was all too brief and logically Yuvraj deserved a chance at No. 4 because he was going great guns. But he didn't get it because Yuvraj at that time was probably considered a bigger "threat" to His Royal Highness (Ganguly). It was only after Greg Chappell took over that Yuvraj managed to cement his place in the team; but Kaif did not grab the few serious opportunities that he did get, and was again shunted out (I am told, against Greg's wishes).

Yuvraj was never fit to be an opener; ideally, he should come in at No. 4, and many commentators like Boycott and Botham have expressed amazement that a player of Yuvraj's class did not get the opportunity at the top of the order. Even now I strongly support Kaif to come in as opener or at least No. 3. He is technically well equipped and has the temperament. What is missing is the confidence and that is due to the shabby treatment he has received.

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Sure, go ahead. Check out the stats.

Yuvraj:
As opener : 2 Matches and 18 runs.
At number 3 : 7 Matches and 220 runs.
At number 4 : 30 Matches and 791 runs.

Kaif:
As opener : 1 Match and 24 runs.
At number 3 : 10 Matches and 379 runs.
At number 4 : 19 Matches and 517 runs.

As you see they were given chances to play up the order but they didn't cement their place like say a Saurav or a Sehwag did.

[mclaren1885]

Wait maybe you could explain how Ganguly had a brilliant outing at Toronto against a top notch pakistani team with the ball or has 95 wickets to his credit, Sachin against the Aussies where he claimed his best bowling figures tumbling 5 aussie wickets or has 150 wickets, maybe you can explain the reason why Sehwag was asked to bowl at the death against the one of the top teams in the 48th or 49th over or has 76 wickets, or Yuvi who has 48 wickets. If you notice most part time bowlers do well against good sides, because of the negligence of the opposition batting or getting carried away. You still don't seem to understand the uncertainty in the game.

Originally Posted by rks

Yuvraj is an honest-to-God left arm slow bowler who doesn't turn the ball much and doesn't have too many tricks/variations in his bag.

Seriously? I must be blind then to have seen him use the crease very well, vary flight, pace of the ball etc (though he lacks consistency even here since most often than not he strays down the legs). Do you know how difficult it used to be to get Chriss Harris away for runs and why? Because he used to be annoyingly slow, used to use flight well and use to vary his pace. Yuvraj, along with Sachin & Sehwag has the skills to be a good regular bowler provided he is asked to focus.

he simply does not have the fire-power to test an international team to the extent of 3-36 off 9 overs.

So what are you hinting at?

But he didn't get it because Yuvraj at that time was probably considered a bigger "threat" to His Royal Highness (Ganguly).

Do you know of any these guys personally to claim this? Or were you a part of the think tank? Or present in the dressing rooms? I see Ganguly has paved his way back to the opening slot all by himself (seeing he is no more a captain). Where was Yuvraj when Ganguly was out of the team? Why didn't he go up the order and cement a place for himself? No wait, now Rahul Dravid also sees Yuvraj as a threat not only to Royal Highness but himself too?

and many commentators like Boycott and Botham have expressed amazement that a player of Yuvraj's class did not get the opportunity at the top of the order.

It wasn't lack of opportunity but that of maturity & approach towards the game (he wished to send every ball out of the park, rather than playing patiently) . Besides he remains to be still one of the most inconsistent players in our side.

As Greg Chappell pointed out, these two were never given sustained opportunities and were shunted in and out of the team and up and down the order.

Its called flexibility in batting order, to suit current batting conditions. Just like Afridi comes in in the slog overs at times and opens at times. Gilchrist opens in One dayers but comes in the middle order for tests. You know.

Even now I strongly support Kaif to come in as opener or at least No. 3.

I bet opening bowlers of most teams in the world will be laughing their way to the bank. Specially when you have openers like Sehwag, Sachin and Ganguly instead and Dravid & Dhoni in the middle order.

When Ganguly was flopping royally, he would pull off phony stunts like bringing in Agarkar at No. 3 so that he could demote Yuvraj and Kaif still further.

Agarkar is a clean hitter of the ball you know. The strategy was to accelerate the score without having to loose one of the main batsmen. If Agarkar clicked it would be a bonus, if he didn't the other main batsmen would still be there. Sending in pinch hitters is not a new thing in cricket in case you knew.

But Yuvraj and Kaif are in a different class altogether

Very true. A class in which they can hardly be sure when they are selected/dropped.