[diabloo]

Hey buddy, you can't follow the scoring rate of team batting first to secure a win. India commited this mistake in this ODI and hence they lost.
England scored 81 runs in last 10 overs. India had to score 80 odd in last 10 overs and they lost. No sane team will follow this tactic.

So whats important is 'Required Rate'. If you keep this under your control, you will win.

India had to get 282 in 300 deliveries. So all of their batsmen could waste was 18 deliveries. But Ganguly wasted 104 - 72 = 32 deliveries. That was equivalent to asking India to score 282 in 45 overs. This made task difficult for rest of the batsmen.

In any big match, any team winning the toss will opt to bat. This is because the pressure of chasing big total can get to the players. This is true for strongest of teams.

Note 1: If you captain any team, I am sure you will chose to bat if you win toss.
Note 2: If you are chasing, you try to maintain required rate, not the rate the other team scored.

Tell me if this is not true ???

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Rks, all that theory on when and who and how to accelerate looks really good on paper. Though on field conditions will be different. All I am saying is compare the run rate with England at 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 overs. See how close it all was. If the England youngsters with just as many wickets could do it why not our youngsters? Answer is as simple as that.

Don't say it was the pressure of chasing et all. Team batting first will never know what to aim at. Those the team chasing will always know their target, hence it makes their life easy.

This thread seems to be a war of ego's and not for appreciating the game in itself. Everyone knows the white cricket ball swings in the first 10 overs and England wickets favours seam conditions. Equate that into your analysis too on why the runs are less in the 1st 10 overs. Also learn to give some credit to the Englishmen for the wonderful game they played. Ganguly would have gotten atleast another 5 boundaries had the Englishmen fielded like us. Their fielding in the end won them their game. Give some credit to where its due rather than just whining about how bad our team played.
England played a much better game overall and WON. Thats the way it should be.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by diabloo

If you captain any team, I am sure you will chose to bat if you win toss.

To be honest, I would decide on what my teams strengths are. If I have confidence that my team can chase big scores yes I will choose to bowl first. Specially when there is bound to be moisture on the pitch in the morning session.

If you are chasing, you try to maintain required rate, not the rate the other team scored.

Once again, this would depend on WHAT SCORE you are chasing and type of wicket and the strength of the opposition bowling. You cannot go out there and say I will hit every bowler out of the park. It doesnt work that way. There are always certain bowlers the batsmen of every team target.

Going by the current trend 80 runs in the last 10 overs isn't really a big deal. Honestly. Specially when you have wickets in hand. And some big hitters like Yuvi, Powar & Dhoni. If they cannot score at 8 runs an over, they really don't deserve the tag of being "big hitters" or "dangerous batsmen". Also there is a general perception in cricket that the score after 30 overs normally doubles up at 50. Have India done that?

I agree that our seniors didn't do a good job of carrying on from where they started. But that is just not an excuse for the rest to do bad or give up as well.

Where India actually lost the match was when all of the below happened:

1. Bowlers didn't take advantage of the moisture factor and bag a couple of early wickets.

2. Munaf gave away atleast 1 over extra due to his lack of understanding the basics of the game. God knows, how many more runs he conceded while at it.

3. RP Singh dropped a sitter. Then another easy run out.

4. Dhoni missed a golden stumping chance.

5. Pathetic fielding by all our players. Its actually kind of sad seeing Yuvi go on diving for every attempt he makes unnecessarily. Agreed he is a good fielder, but he just seems to want to show how hard he is trying and it looks fake.

6. Karthik missed out on yet another run out. He is not Jonty and he must get that clearly into his head.

This is where India actually lost the match. The poor batting was just a continuation of this dismal performance on the field. You cannot expect to bowl badly and then expect the batsmen to do the rest.

I saw a number of people criticizing why Dravid was playing an extra batsmen. By the looks of it the other day we could done with another 2 batsmen more. This inconsistent performance by the whole team is what that bothers the team management.

Its a team game, where the team that bowls, bats & fields better wins the game. Obviously England were better in all the departments. They deserved to win.

[rks]

Originally Posted by diabloo

Hey buddy, you can't follow the scoring rate of team batting first to secure a win. India commited this mistake in this ODI and hence they lost.

England scored 81 runs in last 10 overs. India had to score 80 odd in last 10 overs and they lost. No sane team will follow this tactic.

So whats important is 'Required Rate'. If you keep this under your control, you will win.

I agree. Teams that chase would like to keep the required rate at or below a run a ball. When Ganguly got out, the score was 149-4 in 32 overs, and the asking rate was ~7.3 an over. Another 20 runs from Ganguly and 5 more from Tendulkar in that situation would have left India at 174-4, needing 108 in 18 overs, which would have been ideal. Is it too much to ask 92 off 104 from Ganguly and 13 off 19 from Sachin? Ganguly did try his best towards the end of his innings, but just couldn't succeed in accelerating the run rate and got out trying the same.

In any big match, any team winning the toss will opt to bat. This is because the pressure of chasing big total can get to the players. This is true for strongest of teams.

This depends a lot on the conditions. If the atmosphere is very cloudy in the morning of a day match the ball might swing around and the captain might want to take advantage of the conditions and field first. I think Dravid was influenced by this factor, but it did not work out and the pitch played true. In day-night matches in places where humidity is very high (say, Sharjah) the captain often fields first on winning the toss, because the evening dew would cause the ball to lose shine and make it difficult for the bowlers to grip the ball. On the other hand, I think in England, the preferred option in day-night matches would be to bat first because the ball might swing around more in the evening/night and there isn't much dew. Many other factors also come into play; the pressure of a chase is just one of these.

[diabloo]

The condition for the teams batting first & second are pretty even in most of the ODIs these days. The fact that Indian seamers failed to pick the wickets tells there was nothing much advantageous to team bowling first (remember, the same attack picked up wickets in Test matches). So we can say conditions were pretty much even - we can assume this since the groundsman & the hosting country don't want the ODIs to be decided on toss alone.

Now, when the conditions are even, which is easier:
> Set large target
> Chase large target

If you analyze historical ODI data, you will find more teams have won setting large target than teams who have chased large targets.

Originally Posted by rks

I agree. Teams that chase would like to keep the required rate at or below a run a ball. When Ganguly got out, the score was 149-4 in 32 overs, and the asking rate was ~7.3 an over. Another 20 runs from Ganguly and 5 more from Tendulkar in that situation would have left India at 174-4, needing 108 in 18 overs, which would have been ideal. Is it too much to ask 92 off 104 from Ganguly and 13 off 19 from Sachin? Ganguly did try his best towards the end of his innings, but just couldn't succeed in accelerating the run rate and got out trying the same.
This depends a lot on the conditions. If the atmosphere is very cloudy in the morning of a day match the ball might swing around and the captain might want to take advantage of the conditions and field first. I think Dravid was influenced by this factor, but it did not work out and the pitch played true. In day-night matches in places where humidity is very high (say, Sharjah) the captain often fields first on winning the toss, because the evening dew would cause the ball to lose shine and make it difficult for the bowlers to grip the ball. On the other hand, I think in England, the preferred option in day-night matches would be to bat first because the ball might swing around more in the evening/night and there isn't much dew. Many other factors also come into play; the pressure of a chase is just one of these.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by diabloo

Now, when the conditions are even, which is easier:
> Set large target
> Chase large target

If conditions are even I would say chase a target. Because batting first you will never know what kind of a score is enough. But while chasing you are very well aware of the fact that you have to score at this rate. Its more easier to plan it out. But all this looks good on paper. At the end of it what matters is what happens on the field. And that is something that no one can predict.

[diabloo]

Hey man, even our bowling coach is not happy with Munaf's performance. Check this out Prasad questions Munaf's commitment

Originally Posted by rks

Munaf is coming back from injury. Presumably he lost pace due to that. Look at his record; it is very good in both Tests and one-dayers. He needs time to find his feet again. But I suspect he will be dumped and forgotten, like Pathan.

[normally_crazy]

Originally Posted by diabloo

Now, when the conditions are even, which is easier:
> Set large target
> Chase large target

What to do when a team cannot chase nor set a target ?

[Surprise]

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Dhoni whose career strike rate is in the 90s, is managing just around the 50s in this series; Ganguly and Tendulkar have got 50s in the series so far, but have a strike rate of 70 - a rate not acceptable at the top of the order especially chasing huge totals. Ganguly had as many as 68 dots in his innings of 72 at Edgbaston chasing a 280 plus total

.

India's disadvantages

1. Openers should give a brisk start while chasing
2. Fielders should be alert during power play
3. Too many runs given in last 10 overs
4. Dravid good with bat but a bad tactician

England's disadvantages

1. Poor record in recent times
2. Improved bowling in the last phase
3. Maintained their strike rate
4. Collingwood down with stomach bug

[normally_crazy]

Surprise,

Isn't this what we have been harping on day in and day out ?

I guess we are going with an extra batsman for today's match. Gambhir in place of Munaf should be the change unless Dravid pulls another trick on us. And if Gambhir is selected - I would want him to go and open the innings. Sachin should drop one down.

I would prefer Uthappa over Gambhir but Dravid being the safe captain - he will not take this risk. I would have preferred him to take Uthappa and make him open - something for the English opening bowlers to think.

Lets wait and watch.

[rks]

Originally Posted by diabloo

Hey man, even our bowling coach is not happy with Munaf's performance. Check this out Prasad questions Munaf's commitment

Also some TV channel reported that a selector who did not want to be named, mentioned that "Munaf is embarassing us". Poor Munaf, looks like a lynch mob is after him. Let us not forget that he played an important role in the previous game by picking up wickets. Even in the latest game he picked up one wicket. I feel sad that a selector and bowling coach thought it fit to publicly run down a current member of the Indian team, and that when he is making a come-back from a long lay-off.

If a batsman is picked instead of Munaf, that would weaken our pace attack on a fast pitch (Old Trafford). It is more logical to leave out a spinner, but I am against that also. Our top batsmen will have to play to their potential and score at a reasonable run rate and then our lower order will do the rest.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by rks

Poor Munaf, looks like a lynch mob is after him.

Nothing new is it? This time its Munaf that is being targeted thats all.

[cypher]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

What to do when a team cannot chase nor set a target ?

Ha ha. I think they sack the coach.

[khaadu75]

Guys , Lets drop post mortems coz its very easy for even illiterate people to do that ...... what I say is to come out with what will happen today ????

Lets see how accurate the so called experts are ....

[diabloo]

Hey man, if people who do post-mortems are illiterate doctors then people who predict what will happen in future are illiterate astrologers

Since I am also an illiterate astrologer, I would say India will win because, the fire of revenge is burning in the hearts of Indians

Originally Posted by khaadu75

Guys , Lets drop post mortems coz its very easy for even illiterate people to do that ...... what I say is to come out with what will happen today ????

Lets see how accurate the so called experts are ....

[mclaren1885]

I say England will win this series. The Old Trafford pitch is a quick one, so maybe India might field an extra batsmen and use the slower bowlers to cut down the pace on the ball so that the batsmen find it difficult to hit. India's record at Old Trafford is pretty decent. Hopefully it will be a closely fought battle. And not a one sided.