[karty_83]

Originally Posted by joslicx

So then what stopped Sobers and Richards from playing 500 ODIs an 200 tests?
You are just giving excuses for others. What stopped other "better talents" to achieve what Sachin has achieved then???

1) They never played as much cricket back then like today

2) They never started off at 16 to get 22+ years

3) They were not after records

Say x,y and z will eventually replace the trio of Sachin, Dravid and Laxman. No matter how talented they are they cant get into the team until the trio retire. What if Sachin was born 15 years later. Would he have got a chance to make his debut at 16 again with our famous batting lineup of 00's ? Never. He would have had to wait. Like wise, there have been many instances where talented players have had to wait to get into a team. So they never get a chance to have a long career.

I am not giving excuses for others nor am i undermining Sachin's achievements. A wasim akram or an Allan donald or a Mcgrath did not have to get 800 wickets to prove their greatness. Even at 300,400 and 500 wickets they are considered one of the best ever.
Sachin would have been regarded as a great batsman even if he played only 90 odd test matches. I am not questioning his talent, he is an awesome player.

Sachin has also achieved something I think nobody can beat (at least in my lifetime). And that is 30000 international runs. I can guarantee you both Kallis and Ponting wont come near to that!

Totally agree with you on that. His records will stay in tact for ever. Because nobody will ever get a chance to play as many matches as him. Lets not bring in past players. Say if lara, kallis and ponting played for 450 odis and 180 test matches each, dont you think they can score 30k runs ? Dont ask me why they didn't , coz they never had the privilege of a 22+ years career by breaking into a weak team at 16 nor can they retire at their own mercy.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by karty_83

coz they never had the privilege of a 22+ years career by breaking into a weak team at 16 nor can they retire at their own mercy.

PRIVILEGE!!! PRIVILEGE???

What are you talking dude?

Sachin got the privilege to play at 16?? SERIOUSLY?? I just cant fathom from where you got that?

Oh wow privilege, privilege... Its going to ring in my head.

You think it is snatching candy from a 2 year-old kid when you are called to play for the country at the age of 16??

You think it is that easy? Then or now or whenever?

I am surprised by you guys going below the belt to try and prove a point. Its now bordering on total and abject ignorance of anything related to life. Forget cricket.

PS: Right now India is a weak team. How many 16 year-olds have a chance. LOL!! I had a good laugh though. Thanks.

[karty_83]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Sachin got the privilege to play at 16?? SERIOUSLY?? I just cant fathom from where you got that? You think it is snatching candy from a 2 year-old kid when you are called to play for the country at the age of 16??

Have i in any of my posts questioned Sachin's talent ? I repeat, he is a super talented cricketer who was good enough to represent his country at 16.

Right now India is a weak team. How many 16 year-olds have a chance.

Exactly my point. Assume Mr. X is another child prodigy like Sachin at 16 or 20 or whatever. Whom does he replace in the current batting order to prove that he is the next Sachin ? From Sehwag to Dhoni there is hardly any vacancy.
India never had such a strong batting lineup 20 years back and so it was easier to break into the lineup which he did and ofcourse with prodigious talent.
But what if Sachin was born in Australia ? I am sure he wouldn't have had this long a career for he would have started much later. Not having a longer career should not undermine a player.
After a 100 test matches, Sachin, Lara , Ponting , Kallis , Dravid all had more or less the same record. Having started at different times they ll end up differently. Sachin had a head start and will probably finish last. Eventually play more number of matches and hence a better record.

Edit : Please don't get personal like you did in the last post. We are just having a discussion and expressing our viewpoints.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by karty_83

Have i in any of my posts questioned Sachin's talent ? I repeat, he is a super talented cricketer who was good enough to represent his country at 16.

You called it a privilege for getting him a place in the National Team. A Team which was the ex-World Champion then. I don't even have to list you who was on that team. And how you went on to say it was a weak team. That's a lost argument for you right there.

Exactly my point.

Not at all. Read again.

Assume Mr. X is another child prodigy like Sachin at 16 or 20 or whatever.

You make it look like there are 16 year olds like that playing first class cricket like he did at that age all over the country.

Show me one. Anywhere in the world. Forget India.

You think it is easy to be a prodigy at that age?

Closest anyone in recent years was Kohli, but he had his head in the clouds and is now coming down to earth.

Only talent at the game does not suffice to last 20+ years. Example of this - Vinod Kambli. Having played with both, India lost out on another Sachin. Believe me. Imagine two in one team. Both playing for 20 years.

Somewhere down the line Kambli got it all wrong.

Whom does he replace in the current batting order to prove that he is the next Sachin ? From Sehwag to Dhoni there is hardly any vacancy.

Look back at history. Whom did Sachin replace? You will get an answer.

India never had such a strong batting lineup 20 years back and so it was easier to break into the lineup which he did and ofcourse with prodigious talent.

WHAT?? Let me list out the team to you.

1. Kris Srikanth
2. NS Sidhu
3. Manjrekar
4. Kaoil Dev
5. Azharuddin
6. Shastri
7. Prabhakar
+
8. Tendulkar

Now tell me how was that a weak batting team?

But what if Sachin was born in Australia ? I am sure he wouldn't have had this long a career for he would have started much later. Not having a longer career should not undermine a player.

If he was born in Australia. I could have never replied to your posts.

And you go on about this long career bit and how it helps him to create records.

Have you tried playing pro-sport (any) for 10+ years?

Do you know what it takes to maintain that longevity?

You guys make it sound like oh well he was 16 and so he could play for 22 years. You think because he came in early he can play for that long - just like that? What are you trying to say?

Eventually play more number of matches and hence a better record.

Going into the above again. You think it us your galli cricket dude? That every evening if I own the ball I can play in this galli for the next 50 years?

This is top flight cricket dude? THINK for heaven sake!!!

[karty_83]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

A Team which was the ex-World Champion then. I don't even have to list you who was on that team. And how you went on to say it was a weak team. That's a lost argument for you right there.

India is the current world champion team. In an earlier post didn't you say its weak now ?

Somewhere down the line Kambli got it all wrong.

Couldn't agree more with you on this.

Look back at history. Whom did Sachin replace? You will get an answer.

Sachin replaced none . Have i said he replaced any ? I said he broke into a team with sheer talent.

1. Kris Srikanth
2. NS Sidhu
3. Manjrekar
4. Kaoil Dev
5. Azharuddin
6. Shastri
7. Prabhakar
+
8. Tendulkar

Now tell me how was that a weak batting team?

Lets be honest, Is our batting line up not stronger now ? Is it difficult for a player of Sachin's caliber to get into this team ?

Have you tried playing pro-sport (any) for 10+ years?
Do you know what it takes to maintain that longevity?
Going into the above again. You think it us your galli cricket dude? That every evening if I own the ball I can play in this galli for the next 50 years?

What is the need to get personal here ?

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by karty_83

What is the need to get personal here ?

LOL!! You didn't get anything of what I was saying in my whole post. And your questions back are just something that you did not grasp at all.

And there is nothing personal about what I wrote above its a generic comment. Apologies if you felt so.

I am out of discussing this with you cause you are not getting what I am saying. And trust me I tried.

So let it be.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by karty_83

Say if lara, kallis and ponting played for 450 odis and 180 test matches each, dont you think they can score 30k runs ?

Sachin started in 1989 and has 14K+ test runs. Dravid started after 7 years (in 1996) and has 12K+ test runs. Right now the difference between the two is 2235 runs. If Dravid manages to play Tests for 2 years after Tendulkar retires, he can be the highest run getter.
The point I am making is, Tendulkar's ODI quantity records are untouchable. But thats not the case in Tests. In tests, he is not beyond his peers.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by msdivy

The point I am making is, Tendulkar's ODI quantity records are untouchable. But thats not the case in Tests. In tests, he is not beyond his peers.

Some fundamentals first.

First thing you dont grade the greats. i.e. You do not compare one great to the other and say the other is greater.

Both of them are great. PERIOD.

Second when you talk about grading people like Sachin and Rahul as one being better then other. Number of runs, test, ODI, centuries, age, etc. Nothing matters.

For never have i said a Sachin is greater then a Rahul or a Lara or a (whomever you want to add).

Because I know what I am talking. Whereas you guys are trying to prove why Tendulkar is not great. And as per me that is beyond our capabilities to even judge.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by karty_83

Say x,y and z will eventually replace the trio of Sachin, Dravid and Laxman. No matter how talented they are they cant get into the team until the trio retire. What if Sachin was born 15 years later. Would he have got a chance to make his debut at 16 again with our famous batting lineup of 00's ? Never. He would have had to wait. Like wise, there have been many instances where talented players have had to wait to get into a team. So they never get a chance to have a long career.

Dude, there are numerous instances where youngsters have replaced greats of the game.

I'll give you examples from one sport I follow the most (I dont follow cricket much these days - except indian team, that too only ODIs and tests). In football right now Barcelona are the best team on earth (whether you consider club football or national footy). In 2006 they won the European champions league (which is like even more prestigious than world cup these days). That team had the likes of Ronaldhino and Deco in their prime. Now Ronaldhino was some player - the reigning world player of the year (for 3 years running), certainly the most talented, most exciting and most extraordinary player in the game at that time (and certainly is one of the most extraordinary talents in the game of all time!). What happened next - he was replaced by a 17 year old kid by the name of Messi! The rest is history. Today, at 23, Messi has already become one of the greats of the game!!!

Another example is that of Mesut Ozil. German football team had their own Tendulkar equivalent (goes by the name of Ballack who was also national team captian!). His bad luck, he got injured for the world cup and was replaced by a 21 year old Ozil. Result - Ozil was one of the shining stars of the world cup, he earned a transfer to Real Madrid and was a starter there over a player like Kaka (who was a one time world player of the year and one of their costliest acquisitions in the squad) Ozil also effectively replaced Ballack such that latter was forced into taking retirement from natioanl team!

Young players certainly can replace oldies. But for that only talent is not enough. What is also needed is will power to succeed, commitment to working hard and keep improving, professionalism, commitment to fitness (ishant sharma should hang his head in shame), commitment to honesty and to the game itself. Sport at the top is pretty ruthless and that is true for all, whether old or young!

Tendulkar himself is the biggest role model to any and all youngsters wanting to do good in the game or for that matter in any sport.

[WindRide]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Whereas you guys are trying to prove why Tendulkar is not great

Wow. Nobody is doing that.

I don't know nor care of SRT's statistics. Personally, I give a rat's behind to numbers. You don't need numbers to say someone is great/average/loser. Just look at the player on his stage, look at how he handles the bat/ball. That's enough.

Al Pacino/Kamal Haasan need not got thru 1000s of movies to earn the recognisions they have currently.

Now coming to the question of why other talented batsmen did not play for such a long time as SRT, so that they could match his statistics.

Here goes my theory -
1. SRT's biggest strengths are - his all consuming passion for the game (some call it 'child-like') and an amazing stamina. He is a human Duracel. Where other gifted players have lost interest in the game/ had different priorities/injuries, SRT remains focused on the game and approaches it with a teenager's enthusiasm. He does not have a world outside of Cricket. It is another matter that even when he was out due to injuries, he could easily walk in due to lack of serious bench strength.

2. He started very early. It helped he is from Bombay, the epi-center of Indian cricket. Would an Assamese/Bihari/Malayalee 16-year old got a similar chance as SRT. Doubtful. I say this because for talent scouts, Mumbai & Delhi is where whole of India used to live earlier. All that changed post-Dhoni, ofcourse.

3. Huge support of BCCI, Selectors and Media who have willingly given him an extremely long rope to dance around. Tell me, which other player can escape censure after playing IPL to heart's content and then declaring 'not available' for WI tour due to 'injury' and going away on an European vacation. Had it been anybody else, Media would hauled the poor guy over hot coals. But since this was SRT, mum is the word.

I have enjoyed watching the early years of SRT and it was pure bliss.
That enjoyment is not there anymore. Today he resembles just another batsman with nothing special in his batting.
His magical qualities are long gone.
Today he appears very ordinary, very human. Sometimes painfully so.
He just accumulates runs like a machine, going about it in suspiciously selfish manner sometimes.
It is painful to see him accumulate runs like Shivnaraine Chanderpaul and other such run-gatherers.

So lets be clear - the debate is not on whether SRT is gifted/great/GOD.
Question is - is it time for him to have a graceful exit, so that his true (not rabid) fans can remember him for the special memories he has given us all these years.

[NPV]

Originally Posted by NPV

Seems like only the weather gods can save the 'strong' Indian batting lineup from another humiliating defeat - we generally need just about 4 days to complete a losing test match so we are well on target. As usual, it's will be a pitch where the English batsmen will score a lot of runs but it will be batting-unfriendly for the Indians. Ditto with our bowlers versus theirs ! This is the story of our lives now

Sorry to quote my own post, hating myself for the accuracy in predicting doom !
Sehwag and Laxman gone, 8 pins to go in our 10-pin innings

[karty_83]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Some fundamentals first.

Second when you talk about grading people like Sachin and Rahul as one being better then other. Number of runs, test, ODI, centuries, age, etc. Nothing matters.

For never have i said a Sachin is greater then a Rahul or a Lara or a (whomever you want to add).

Because I know what I am talking. Whereas you guys are trying to prove why Tendulkar is not great. And as per me that is beyond our capabilities to even judge.

Finally . Thanks sir. That is exactly what i have been saying. They are all very talented and special players who have brought joy to the spectators world over. It wouldn't be right to just glorify just one person and call him God

PS : India is 5 down :( A white wash looks imminent .

[SilentEngine]

Gambhir injured again, Dravid opens again, 5 wickets lost in a session ...
How long it's going to take before we are spared of this mismatch?

[WindRide]

Just saw a rare occurence - Gavaskar having a go at SRT for taking a 5 week break between IPL and England tour - "you cannot take a 5 week break when you are 38 yrs old and expect to do well on returning to active cricket".

And Harsha was spot on during the post-match review - "In India we worship talent more than it deserves, while ignoring hard work, discipline and work ethics".

Gloves coming off, i reckon.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by WindRide

Question is - is it time for him to have a graceful exit, so that his true (not rabid) fans can remember him for the special memories he has given us all these years.

WOW!!

When did this turn into that? Please read all the posts

It started of he being labeled a selfish player. Then we went from calling him a genius to not a genius, but great. Then maybe only great not genius. Then half genius, half great. And then how he was privileged to play at 16. And on and on.

You guys keeping adding loose ends to the discussion. Now you guys got to his graceful exit.. Well that's a different matter altogether. I am lost , really.

About rabid or not. Having got the opportunity to spend time with all these greats sometime or the other. You will never get an idea how fiercely I would defend these guys (all of them not only Sachin). Because I know what it takes, I tried my life out to get there and I believe there is a lot that goes into getting there. Ask any pro-player on the circuit today just one question. "What is that one thing you ever would want in your life and give up anything for it?" You will have an answer to what it really really takes to be there.

Originally Posted by karty_83

Pressure from media, senior cricketers and commentators brought him back to the openers slot and the rest his history.

But to call him the greatest ever is taking it a little too far. Fans call him the best because he has 51 test hundreds, but then he has also played 180 test matches for it.

No doubt he would have gone past sachin's record and lets not question Sobers credentials, he is a proven genius.

Vivian richards would have beaten all Sachin's odi records had he played for 450 odd matches. Lets not question his credentials either.

With the kind of pitches we play in and bcci support , after 20 years would they have achieved any less ?

Originally Posted by karty_83

Will India say Dravid is better than Sachin in Tests now ? No.

Originally Posted by karty_83

Finally . Thanks sir. That is exactly what i have been saying.

No you have been not. You have been trying to say Sachin is not the only great/genius or whatever and all other players should also be measured equally. What I have been trying to elaborate is why he is that good and revered for. And you think we don't know what the other players can do?

You started off comparing players from Sir Sobers to Hussey to try and show how Sachin is not the best of all. A lost argument in itself as I clarified above what one means by "Greats". And then you start agreeing to it.

It wouldn't be right to just glorify just one person and call him God

And there you show your bias again after saying all that.

Why not let people call him God? You can start calling Rameez Raja God instead. You think "I" will mind that?