[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by msdivy

So Dhoni doesn't win neither with young team nor with stalwarts.

Wow, what an analogy? Dhoni doesn't win? I guess the team does not.

Originally Posted by msdivy

Dhoni has exprsssed (indirectly) that he is not interested in test cricket.

Care to show me how do you know this?

Originally Posted by msdivy

But as CSK captain, it becomes his obligation to be also Indian test captain, to get more revenue for his franchisee.This move by then BCCI President continues to haunt Indian test cricket.

Again hearsay. Is there any logic to this or this is just a rant?

And whom should be make the skipper in your greatest minds? Gambhir? Kohli? Oh yeah, there was no one, we can sack him, but who is the replacement? Is there anyone?
I completely agree with what the BCCI President had done, I may not agree or even like him but that was good for Indian cricket.

And if anyone who looked like they were willing to fight it out, it was MSD and remember he was the guy who was not 'supposed' to score over here due to his technique.


These are good, talented players, they have not become bad over the series. I am surprised and pained by the way we caved in. But we needed a couple of seniors in there to talk to these guys, give them a bit of confidence. I am dismayed with the role of Duncan Flectcher, he is supposed to be the guy who helps this team.
Equally aghast with the discipline (or rather the lack of it) by the bowlers and fielders. It seemed as if the players were lost. The 5 Test Series also played a huge part in it. If this was a 3 Test series we would have left with a 1-1 and be fairly happy with it, but a long series clearly showed up the fitness of players, both mentally and physically.

The effect of T20 showed as well - Pujara & Kohli were clearly playing shots which they don't; especially Pujara. This is a young team and we have to accept there will be such abject failures. I hope we back the right players.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Wow, what an analogy? Dhoni doesn't win? I guess the team does not.

Dhoni is great leader, excellent man-manager. He is terrific on field in ODIs & T20s. But his tactics as test captain on field is poor. There is no improvement, but going downhill. Due to his poor tactics, many times Dhoni has drawn the test from position of strength. The current team though young have experience. Individually, they have done well in SA, Aus, NZ, WI. Either coach or captain, have failed to come up with a fighting plan in Eng. Virtually, the same team played throughout, with no change in strategy or tactic.

Care to show me how do you know this?

Yes, Back in 2012 Dhoni in an interview said he plans to stay till 2015 WC but will take a call on playing test in 2013. The way Dhoni made these comments made few ex-captains say-'Dhoni not interested in Test cricket'

Again hearsay. Is there any logic to this or this is just a rant?

The logic is CSK owner wants all test-playing players in CSK playing 11, obviously to earn more revenue for the franchisee.

And whom should be make the skipper in your greatest minds? Gambhir? Kohli? Oh yeah, there was no one, we can sack him, but who is the replacement? Is there anyone?

TINA is lame excuse for not sacking a non-performing player, I mean captain. Dhoni can continue as WK (though his WK skills are going downhill, as evident in spills in slips, due to player standing further than required, since WK is standing further than required.)

Now Dhoni says Whatever we could have done, we tried. Hence the need for fresh thinking, approach in tests.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by msdivy

. But his tactics as test captain on field is poor. There is no improvement, but going downhill. Due to his poor tactics, many times Dhoni has drawn the test from position of strength.

MSD is known to be defensive in Tests outside of the subcontinent from a long time. The reason - where are the bowlers who stick to one side of the wicket? Did you see anyone (barring Bhuvi) have the same line and length as say an Anderson? He cannot teach the bowlers to bowl. He cannot keep unearthing new bowlers.

Originally Posted by msdivy

Yes, Back in 2012 Dhoni in an interview said he plans to stay till 2015 WC but will take a call on playing test in 2013. The way Dhoni made these comments made few ex-captains say-'Dhoni not interested in Test cricket'

I know about this. So where does MSD says - I am not interested in Test Cricket? Can you please read it?
What he implied was, he would take a call depending upon his fitness and he did, he is still playing. I am not sure what else is there to be said about this.
And the less I hear about ex-captains the better; they just keep sermonizing him and did nothing of note themselves. Give me an independent and intelligent man like Rahul Dravid saying something like that and I will agree. I won't with those guys who have their own agenda.

Originally Posted by msdivy

The logic is CSK owner wants all test-playing players in CSK playing 11, obviously to earn more revenue for the franchisee.

Oh yeah - logic. That's why they left out Murli Vijay.

Originally Posted by msdivy

TINA is lame excuse for not sacking a non-performing player, I mean captain. Dhoni can continue as WK (though his WK skills are going downhill, as evident in spills in slips, due to player standing further than required, since WK is standing further than required.)

Even in such a forum you could not come up with an alternate, do you think that Indian selectors are so stupid that they think we would make anyone the skipper?

[vinit.merchant]

According to me, India has stopped producing Test Batsmen i.e. batsmen with the real ability to stand ground against quality bowling. We were spoiled by the greats like Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid, Laxman and to some extent Sehwag. And these guys were at times all together in the playing 11. No doubt we turned around so many tests with these class batsmen. Remember the Australia test turnaround anyone?

But I also cannot plainly blame these players. T20 has changed the game. Players can still adapt to the 50 over format after a long T20 playing season, but then Test matches ? Nah. Look at the strokes that are being played in the short format.

We need a few Test specialists. Pujara tried playing the T20 and failed miserably in that format, and in turn also spoiled his test playing skills.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

According to me, India has stopped producing Test Batsmen i.e. batsmen with the real ability to stand ground against quality bowling. We were spoiled by the greats like Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid, Laxman and to some extent Sehwag. And these guys were at times all together in the playing 11. No doubt we turned around so many tests with these class batsmen. Remember the Australia test turnaround anyone?

But I also cannot plainly blame these players. T20 has changed the game. Players can still adapt to the 50 over format after a long T20 playing season, but then Test matches ? Nah. Look at the strokes that are being played in the short format.

We need a few Test specialists. Pujara tried playing the T20 and failed miserably in that format, and in turn also spoiled his test playing skills.

Among all the greats for me Sehwag was the main reason for our success those days. Opening is the most crucial thing in test cricket and difficult too. After Gavaskar he is the best opener we had. Not only he will tackle the opposition bowlers but will neutralize the threat of new ball by going all aggressive.

Since 2011 we haven't had one 50 run opening stand. Vijay looks good to carry on but who will be his partner? Dhawan has failed and doesn't have the technique. Gambhir should retire. IMO make Pujara open cos in any case he is on the wicket within first five overs itself. That gives option of playing one extra batsman down the order. But the main issue is no one thinks of doing anything different. In Ganguly time he asked Dravid to open which dravid did brilliantly. He will make changes but here Dhoni is either sleeping or dreaming of Odi's cos in tests he has failed miserably time and again.

To the question who to be captain if not Dhoni. Ashwin. He is a smart thinker and does well with both bat and ball. SA made Smith captain when he was so young. Same thing happened with cook and they delivered. Till a change won't happen how will we know the difference?

But, sadly Indian cricket has no accountability. Any other nation Dhoni and Fletcher would have been sacked after this humiliation. But here nothing changes.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by harry10

To the question who to be captain if not Dhoni. Ashwin. He is a smart thinker and does well with both bat and ball. SA made Smith captain when he was so young. Same thing happened with cook and they delivered. Till a change won't happen how will we know the difference?

Smart thinker - Yes. But can he hold his own in a Test overseas. And we are suggesting we play a different skipper there or what? He has failed miserably in my opinion on any track outside the subcontinent. The difference between Ashwin and Smith was Smith could bat *anywhere*. Let's not talk about Cook - he is pathetic as a skipper. This Indian team made him look very good. Remember he lost to Sri Lanka at home. Australia/SA will beat this England team to pulp. They are not that good and that is why this loss is even more disappointing.

On the skipper: I would have opined for Kohli or Pujara but both of them are in the doldrums right now. MSD will be the skipper till 2015 WC. Too less time for anyone to take over - except probably someone who only plays Tests and has a brain.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

Even in such a forum you could not come up with an alternate, do you think that Indian selectors are so stupid that they think we would make anyone the skipper?

True, Indian selectors are not stupid. They had sacked Dhoni 2 years back. But it isn't a mystery that selectors were sacked to retain Dhoni.

Regarding names, anyone of remaining 15 in the team (leaving Dhoni) will do a better job in tests. Or do you think it will get worse than worst?

[Chetan_Rao]

If our reasoning for not clearing out the deadwood after every bad series is 'there's no on else', why isn't anyone asking the next obvious question: 'when will there be?'.

Leaving the most recent failure aside, what is the Indian cricketing establishment doing as a whole? The problem goes much deeper than the current selectors, squad and captain (however inept they may be).

Where is the supply line? Who are our next bunch of cricketers who can be groomed to International standards? For a country that spends all its time, money and attention on ONE sport, one would be inclined to believe the sport's administrators would have a better plan than 'stick every half-decent under-19/21 cricketer in the senior squad and cross fingers'.

And I don't buy the temperament and adjustment hogwash. When world-class cricketers from every other test-playing nation are able to adjust to all forms of cricket, why not Indian players? It's an attitude problem, 'why should I work hard when I can be a 15-minute superstar in IPL?' attitude.

Bad cricketers are an end result of a faulty system, the problems need to be fixed elsewhere before we can see results on the field. We can start with making county cricket stints mandatory for all contracted players. If it clashes with IPL, tough luck mate, choose between easy money and pride in your national cap, a lot of world cricketers do it every year.

[amitoj]

One thing that was mentioned by one of the commentators during the last test match was that none of the new players in the Indian XI have any experience of playing county cricket. Sure the new crop is talented but talent needs to be exposed to adverse conditions for it to nurture and mature. Kumble, Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly and many more Indian cricketers who were stalwarts of Indian cricket had county experience. Ok Gautam Gambhir has county experience but he has been away from international scene for far too long.
Found this interesting article that is also along the same lines
http://forbesindia.com/blog/grandsta...ounty-cricket/
The fact that this was penned in 2012 after the infamous tours of India where they were beaten black and blue, only emphasizes the point, IMO.
But alas, it is in the hands of BCCI to work with ECB in order to facilitate this. I dont see this happening any time soon. And sacking the support staff, as suggested by Dilip Vengsarkar, will do nothing.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Bad cricketers are an end result of a faulty system, the problems need to be fixed elsewhere before we can see results on the field. We can start with making county cricket stints mandatory for all contracted players. If it clashes with IPL, tough luck mate, choose between easy money and pride in your national cap, a lot of world cricketers do it every year.

I wish that could happen. But BCCI wont let go of easy IPL money for the sake of test cricket.

[karzzexped]

I must agree with you! We blame players, their inability to perform and adapt to the conditions. But nobody dares to blame the system that is at present bleeding cricket. With almost everyone barring Ishant, MSD and Gambhir new to the conditions, county was the only solution. But the team was busy hitting yes bank maximums and pouching karbonn kamaal catches in the Pepsi IPL. It is completely unrealistic to say that the IPL must be scrapped. But the schedules could be placed in a more sound manner so that the players get a chance to play in the county games. Also being a 5 Test series, we may think that the time for making a comeback is plenty. But the sad reality is that the nightmares continue for an extended period of time. I could see the adjustment some batters had made (Virat for instance) but it was too late. The batter that I expected to fail largely due to his lack of footwork showed grit and thrived. I wished that the grit had transformed into his captaincy and at marshaling his players. But no one criticizes Duncan Fletcher who is pretty incompetent at overseas conditions. The split coach philosophy should be taken seriously into consideration. But don't expect any changes till the WC-15 ends. And in a lighter tone as MSD said "The process is more important than the result"

[PPS]

A Captain is only as good as his team!
What can Dhoni do if his side is 8 for 4 or 36 for 5 ? Nobody expected our batting especially Virat & Pujara to do so badly.
Yes, Dhoni needs to be severely criticized for his defensive tactics and over dependence on Jadeja with the ball, not having third man and having leg slip!
Also why don't we give credit to the England bowlers especially Anderson & Broad who are world class at present! Also we were lucky that we didn't have to face Finn who was injured & fastest of the lot!
Nothing much is going to change, we might as well receive a drubbing from Australia down under as the present lot are the best 15 you will find in the country.

[PPS]

Ravi Shastri appointed Director of Cricket for the ODI series against England. Maybe a subtle hint to Duncan Fletcher that his time is up! Also Fielding Coach Trevor Penny & Bowling Coach Dawes are rested. I have heard of players being rested but this is a first!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/co...ry/772063.html

[Chetan_Rao]

It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Yeah, sack the coach, sack the support staff, sack the bus driver, sue the kit manufacturer, blame English weather, English hotels, food and water. Blame the time of the year, planetary alignments, blah blah.

Blame & fix everything except what's broken. Welcome to BCCI. My preferred expansion of that acronym won't get past the profanity filter.

[srishiva]

Ravi Shastri and Gavaskar get selected for everything with BCCI :( They dont have anyone else ?

[harry10]

Originally Posted by srishiva

Ravi Shastri and Gavaskar get selected for everything with BCCI :( They dont have anyone else ?

They are the only big ones on bcci payroll. So, nothing will change.