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Old 6th January 2018, 23:43   #9706
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It is far to early to call Pandya a test match all rounder.
I think Pandya has arrived in a big way today! He's not yet in the Ben Stokes league but he has to churn out these kind of performances regularly over the next 18 months since most of our games will be abroad. I felt he played smart. He took calculated risks which came of. If it weren't for his innings, the game would have been over tomorrow. Not saying India will win this match but what he showed was intent & took the attack to the opposition which is what the fans ultimately want.
Rabada & Philander look the most threatening bowlers on such pitches. Morkel hasn't looked threatening, Steyn is out of series & cannot bowl further. Just feel India is going to rue that 28/3 at the end of the Day 1.
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Old 7th January 2018, 06:26   #9707
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The good thing is that the Pandya for Test matches as an all rounder debate will be settled in about 12 months, once the Australia tour is over.

I am not convinced that India has ever had a world class genuine all rounder - being defined as one that would be selected for batting in competition with specialist batsmen, and for bowling in competition with specialist bowlers. Other than talent, doing both in one match requires high strength and mental and physical fitness. I don't count bits and pieces players that can do both, or one thing well with a little bit of the other, as all rounders. Was Kapil Dev an all rounder? Debatable. To answer that, one has to say yes to the question - would he have been picked for all the matches he played if he did not bowl at all? He would have been picked if he could not bat at all - so he, in my book, was a bowler who could bat. A cut above bits and pieces, but a cut below genuine allrounder. Hadlee, ditto. Botham on the other and, and Stokes now, would make the cut both ways. Other than these two the only genuine all rounder I can think of from the time I have followed the game is Kallis. Sobers was before my time.
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Old 7th January 2018, 09:57   #9708
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Botham on the other and, and Stokes now, would make the cut both ways. Other than these two the only genuine all rounder I can think of from the time I have followed the game is Kallis. Sobers was before my time.
Imran khan was a genuine all rounder I think.
Dhoni is another genuine all rounder who can bat and keep.
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Old 7th January 2018, 10:30   #9709
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I would put Imran alongside Kapil and Hadlee in batting ability. All much better bowlers than batsmen.

Wicket keeper batsmen are not considered as all rounders in cricketing parlance though it is not easy to say why that is so. If they are to be considered, no argument about Dhoni's inclusion. And a few others from other countries, including Engineer from India comes to mind.
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Old 7th January 2018, 10:41   #9710
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Manoj Prabhakar and Karsan Ghavri are the two forgotten all-rounders in India. I remember Prabhakar for the gutsy 120 he scored against West Indies at Mohali in 1994. His other memorable knock was a score of 64 against Australia in the second innings at Adelaide in 1992 which India lost by 38 runs. Kapil Dev's best knock for me was against South Africa in 1992 at Port Elizabeth, India was reeling at 31/6 when Kapil scored a brilliant hundred to prevent being humiliated.

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Old 7th January 2018, 10:58   #9711
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There are others as well: Rusi Surti, Abid Ali, Madan Lal, Roger Binny, or even the brilliant fielder, Eknath Solkar. But none that would be picked for both skills when compared to specialist batsmen or bowlers. Bits and pieces men, or bowlers that were handy with the bat.

It is easy being an all rounder in t20 or even ODIs, all it takes is talent; the test match game drains even the specialists so the test match all rounder of world class is of a special breed.
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Old 7th January 2018, 11:38   #9712
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If the definition of all rounder is one that will be an automatic selection based on either of his skill set (batting/bowling), then only one I can say with conviction from the time I have watched cricket is kallis. What most teams consider as an all rounder is, someone who is very good in one aspect (either batting or bowling) and quite close to an automatic selection in the other. These are not bits and pieces players. Players like Kapil Dev, imran Khan. To call them bits and pieces players, or even a cut above them will not be justice.
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Old 7th January 2018, 13:29   #9713
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For a bunch of adventurous and active folks, some of the cricketing posts are surprising. Reminds me of old men sitting on armchairs, in the sun, reminiscencing about the good old days, and being hyper critical about everything.

Back to cricket. Pandya's innings was critical and he is important not because of technique, but because of his attitude. He made the team realise that there was no South African bowling juju, and that this Indian team could give it back as well. The first three batsmen defeated themselves, they didn't get unplayable deliveries. The issue was mental. Half apprehensiveness and half ODI/IPL cocksureness.

This South African team is amazing in terms of skill and talent, but mentally not so tough when the opposition gives it back to them.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 7th January 2018 at 13:33.
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Old 7th January 2018, 13:32   #9714
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I would put Imran alongside Kapil and Hadlee in batting ability. All much better bowlers than batsmen.

Wicket keeper batsmen are not considered as all rounders in cricketing parlance though it is not easy to say why that is so. If they are to be considered, no argument about Dhoni's inclusion. And a few others from other countries, including Engineer from India comes to mind.
I would say Imran was a genuine all-rounder though you would be right to say that he was a better bowler than a batsman. Still he is only one of 8 players to have 3000+ runs and 300+ wickets in test cricket. His batting average is quite good actually at 37, its better than test players like Rameez Raja (played 50+ tests) and close to someone like Salim Malik (100+ tests).

I would argue that wicketkeeper who can bat very well should be considered an all-rounder. Why shouldn't he? It's a very crucial job in the game. For me Dhoni is one of the great all-rounders in the game. So were Sanga and Gilly as well. All three would merit selection in the team based on their batting alone or their keeping alone!

Last edited by joslicx : 7th January 2018 at 13:46.
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Old 7th January 2018, 14:10   #9715
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I agree; and I have no idea why the wicket keepers are not thought of when it comes to the all rounder tag. Maybe because their presence does not affect the decision of how many bowlers are needed for the team balance if they are in the side. Although there is always the debate about whether a better keeper should be chosen over a not so good keeper but who is also a decent batsman.
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Old 8th January 2018, 09:43   #9716
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Jacques Kallis
Tests batting
Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
166 280 40 13289 224 55.37 28903 45.97 45 58 1488 97 200 0
Tests bowling
Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
166 272 20232 9535 292 6/54 9/92 32.65 2.82 69.2 7 5 0

Comparison
Rahul Dravid
Tests batting
Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
164 286 32 13288 270 52.31 31258 42.51 36 63 1654 21 210 0

Zaheer Khan
Tests bowling
Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
92 165 18785 10247 311 7/87 10/149 32.94 3.27 60.4 15 11 1

Edit:
Zaheer Khan scored 1200+ test runs and Dravid took 1 wicket. If you look at sheer numbers, he was almost Dravid + Zaheer for them. Indeed, that is 20 wickets and 1200 runs less than this combination. I understand these players played most of their cricket in different conditions.
However, most of their careers overlapped. Dravid (1996 to 2012), Zaheer (2000- 2014) and Kallis (1995-2013). So at least we are not comparing across generations. Just wondering what kind of fitness levels would be required to withstand such an impact on the body; to bowl consistently medium fast and also bat for hours together. even in terms of fielding Kallis with 200 catches was not far away from Dravid who had 210 catches.

This is just as an example; Kallis allowed SA to pick one more player. More than anything, it allows the bench strength to be groomed by constant exposure to competitive cricket with the best in the world.

In my opinion, the bits and pieces players are found out in test matches. They are usually those whom you think are bowlers when their batting, but while bowling they are usually the last to be handed the ball. Perhaps to relieve the bowling workload. Like those in the current Sri Lankan team.

Last edited by selfdrive : 8th January 2018 at 09:55.
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Old 8th January 2018, 13:37   #9717
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...reminiscing about the good old days, and being hyper critical about everything.
No, no, not at all.

When I think back to Kapil's and Gavaskar's awkward dialog delivery during the Palmolive or suiting ads, to Tendulkar's voice modulation during his TV spots, to Dhoni's sometimes on, sometimes-off acting, the acting abilities of our 'most marketable cricketers' has certainly improved dramatically! In that Anushka Sharma-Virat Kohli ad, the one where they are attending a wedding, Kohli certainly gave a fantastic performance, matching the professional actress. It was truly admirable!

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Old 8th January 2018, 15:58   #9718
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What an exciting session so far! It, hopefully, has given India a chance.

Think we can chase down 208?
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Old 8th January 2018, 15:59   #9719
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SA lead 207, Target 208, India 1st innings 209. Interesting match. I feel this match may be over today itself with either one of the teams winning it.
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Old 8th January 2018, 16:00   #9720
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Doable in 5 sessions esp. with SA one bowler down, but India will need to keep their heads, which is easier said than done.
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