[landcruiser123]

Originally Posted by harry10

Cricket is an evolving game. The way it used to be played 10 years back no longer works now. Your point was valid 10 years back, not now. Now batsman from 7-11 are looked upon as contributing atleast 60-70 additional runs to the total.....

Could have, would have are hypotheticals and we can't be certain it would happen like we thought..... but again the primary issue with India isn't it's bowling attack, it is the abysmal batting performance time and again.

Let's agree to disagree. I know #7-#11 are expected to score some runs and agree that top and middle-order batsmen are inconsistent. But that doesn't mean you sacrifice bowling. Irrespective of the batting strength you have, taking 20 wickets wins you test matches. Playing Jadeja seemed like a bandaid to cover up for the inconsistency of Pujara, VK, and Rahane.

Unlike previous Indian teams which lacked quality bowlers or had stubborn captains, VK has got quality bowlers and is willing to pick the attack for the conditions. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have done it in this case. I haven't played a test match (I'm sure most people writing on this thread haven't as well) and it is very easy to comment from the outside.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Let's agree to disagree. I know #7-#11 are expected to score some runs and agree that top and middle-order batsmen are inconsistent. But that doesn't mean you sacrifice bowling. Irrespective of the batting strength you have, taking 20 wickets wins you test matches. Playing Jadeja seemed like a bandaid to cover up for the inconsistency of Pujara, VK, and Rahane.

Unlike previous Indian teams which lacked quality bowlers or had stubborn captains, VK has got quality bowlers and is willing to pick the attack for the conditions. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have done it in this case. I haven't played a test match (I'm sure most people writing on this thread haven't as well) and it is very easy to comment from the outside.

The problem with Indian team isn't bowling. Our 5 bowlers would have picked 20 wickets but where was the score to defend? Bumrah had a bad game, happens. But Shami and Ashwin were superb. Ishant was good and Jadeja was giving proper support. They still restricted NZ at 249 in first innings with a lead of 32 ( which was contributed by NZ tail) but batting failed again and we can't ask bowlers to defend 138 in such an important game. Even a 200-210 would have ensured a draw.

Problem is our batting. They can't make 217 and 170 and expect to win a WTC final. We could have drawn the game but Kohli, Pujara and Rahane didn't take the responsibility to even play out the first session. They have been average since long time and that's why we need a Jadeja or Ashwin to make some runs lower down. If top 6 were contributing properly there was no need for Jadeja to play.

Bowling unit has ample options. England series is 5 tests so rotations will happen.

[hothatchaway]

Kohli needs to step down from the captaincy of the test side at the very least. His presence has an intimidating effect even on his own mates, let alone the others. His over the top celebrations sets a very bad example for the kids who look up to cricketers.

Let him take some time out, not least to find his own form in the longer version, and perhaps a bit of humility and grace

[VWAllstar]

There's a news floating around that Pujara will have to make way for KL Rahul or Vihari to be part of the playing XI.

I wish we could have something like below:

R Sharma
C Pujara
V Kohli
KL Rahul
A Rahane
H Vihari
R Pant (wk)
R Jadeja
R Ashwin
I Sharma
M Shami

Gill is an upcoming talent but Pujara does not deserve the kick!

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

Kohli needs to step down from the captaincy of the test side at the very least. His presence has an intimidating effect even on his own mates, let alone the others. His over the top celebrations sets a very bad example for the kids who look up to cricketers.

Let him take some time out, not least to find his own form in the longer version, and perhaps a bit of humility and grace

Wow, one post here that I disagree completely with. In fact, I want him to go back to his 2016 days

- Kohli is a package. You take that passion out from him, and you will take a lot away from his game. He will not be the same batter again.

- Its not his job to educate the kids by being a nice guy on the field. He gives it back. IF anything the kids should pick that up. Anyway, kids are exposed to far worse things on the TV / Internet compared to Kohli.

- If anything, he has mellowed down a lot since 2016/17. This has coincided with a dip in form. I think they are related, but who knows for sure?

Should he step down? No, not right now. It depends on how the team fares this year - in England and in the World Cup.

[hothatchaway]

Originally Posted by Eddy

Wow, one post here that I disagree completely with. In fact, I want him to go back to his 2016 days

- Kohli is a package. You take that passion out from him, and you will take a lot away from his game. He will not be the same batter again.

- Its not his job to educate the kids by being a nice guy on the field. He gives it back. IF anything the kids should pick that up. Anyway, kids are exposed to far worse things on the TV / Internet compared to Kohli.

- If anything, he has mellowed down a lot since 2016/17. This has coincided with a dip in form. I think they are related, but who knows for sure?

Should he step down? No, not right now. It depends on how the team fares this year - in England and in the World Cup.

I don't doubt kohlis passion or intensity, it's the way he is expressing and getting carried away with it which is of concern. I think it's interfering with his perspective and how he views other members of the team. Calling out others when you have yourself struggled is perhaps indicative of this behavior.

I can readily think of many past and contemporary greats who were equally driven without making on field spectacles, Williamson, dravid, Steve Waugh etc etc. To illustrate further, the west Indian quicks of the 80s never sledged, perhaps a stare now and then. They didn't lack any fire.

The Australians have contributed to this, in my opinion, undesirable element to cricket. Maybe I am old fashioned but I appreciate seasoned cricketers going about their business without too much fashion. I am happy about this new Zealand emerging as a world beating side. It demonstrates you don't have to be a boor to be world champions. I know not everybody will agree with me and many actually support brash bordering on boorish on field behavior.

Finally regarding setting an example, like it or not international athletes are public figure and they have to be conscious about how their on field behavior. Kohli himself has made non cricketing comments in the past, displaying his awareness of his public persona. I will be happier if kids emulate a dravid or a Sachin, namely passion and focus for your craft and letting your bag do the talking

[harry10]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

Kohli needs to step down from the captaincy of the test side at the very least. His presence has an intimidating effect even on his own mates, let alone the others. His over the top celebrations sets a very bad example for the kids who look up to cricketers.

Let him take some time out, not least to find his own form in the longer version, and perhaps a bit of humility and grace

I hope you do know he is the most successful Test Captain India ever had. When MSD resigned as test Captain in the middle of Australian tour India were ranked no. 7 in World cricket, yes this is a fact. It was Kohli who took Indian team to no.1 and they have stayed there for 5 consecutive years. He even took the team to WTC final as Captain. He is also the highest run scorer and century maker in current team. And I am only talking about Tests here cos if we go into white ball game his stats are absolutely crazy. And you want him to be replaced cos of one game in which all batsman collectively failed and he didn't made any Captaincy blunders.

And how do you know he intimidates his teammates? Every interview I have seen of Indian players or his RCB teammates only talks about how supportive he is and how he backs everyone. ABD even says he is the best teammate to have ín their team. Please don't create assumptions without facts.

And what kids are getting bad influence from him? All youngsters even in Under 19 game claims he would like to be a player like Kohli. In a recent interview Kohli even explained why he does the celebrations like this cos he feels his job is to make sure team doesn't drop shoulders and give up, by doing this he is lifting the morale and giving them a push to perform even better for the win.

I will strongly suggest you to watch some Kohli interviews on you tube to understand what kind of a humble person he is and the passion he has for the game. You will change your mind

[NPV]

Those talking about Kohli being replaced as captain - this absolutely will not and should not happen now. He is primarily why India's game, fitness and confidence in all formats have seen ascendency in the last few years. He has set an example for everyone to follow and it shows in how other players have taken their game and fitness to the next level, even fielding has improved leaps and bounds.

The test game itself has undergone a big change in terms of strategy and skills and Kohli has rightly adopted the new approach which yields more results. Gone are the days when teams would rake up a big score and try to bowl out the opposition twice and many of those would end in dreary draws. That was another reason for test matches losing spectator appeal.

Now, it's about playing positive cricket, scoring 250-350 odd runs in good time, bowling out the opposition twice and winning games. Risks are more and needs better skills to handle pressure, try bold changes and be more consistent . Teams are doing more (performing) with less (resources). Lower order batting is crucial in today's game and everyone needs to up their game. Though India has one of the best batting sides, the top and/or middle order have sometimes been inconsistent and this is proving costly in key games like we saw in the WTC final.

We just need that extra bit of consistency and then we will see better results.

I don't think Shastri, Arun, Sridhar or other coaching staff can do much to fix this. These are professional, talented players at the highest level and it's their game awareness, mental toughness and application that will help iron out these things.

Edit:just 2-3 months ago didn't we see how an almost second string Indian team beat the mighty Aussies in their own backyard ? Hazlewood, Starc, Cummins together have 1000 test wickets and still lost to a rookie indian team. And again, those games could just have gone the other way, just shows how test games are played now, most are close games.

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by NPV

I don't think Shastri, Arun, Sridhar or other coaching staff can do much to fix this. These are professional, talented players at the highest level and it's their game awareness, mental toughness and application that will help iron out these things.

Agree to all your points except the above. Probably it will be difficult for most coaches to highlight flaws of players like Kohli & Rohit. However, imagine the grooming of younger players which would define our stand in world cricket in the next decade. We need people who are not just result oriented but look to keep the system fair and just. Dravid (Head Coach) + Laxman (batting coach) + Zaheer (bowling coach) + Kaif (fielding coach) with Kumble as Director and Ganguly the BCCI Chief. Let Kohli be the Test Captain, Rohit be the captain for ODIs and T20s.

We early 2000's cricket fans just had a wide smile!

Ok, I have many cricket fantasies.

[ebonho]

While our bowling has improved our batting has certainly gone downhill.

We simply do not have the batting depth and quality of the golden era where we had literally 5 top international batsmen.

[NPV]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

Probably it will be difficult for most coaches to highlight flaws of players like Kohli & Rohit. However, imagine the grooming of younger players which would define our stand in world cricket in the next decade. We need people who are not just result oriented but look to keep the system fair and just.

At this level, these coaches are more like guides, help the players tweak and make adjustments, not really addressing real flaws - that happens more at the U14/U16/U19 levels. This doesn't mean Kohli, Rohit and other players do not have weaknesses or shortcomings. With all the video analysis that's done these days, they need to constantly tweak their game and not let bowlers take advantage of these shortcomings.

Dravid (Head Coach) + Laxman (batting coach) + Zaheer (bowling coach) + Kaif (fielding coach) with Kumble as Director and Ganguly the BCCI Chief. Let Kohli be the Test Captain, Rohit be the captain for ODIs and T20s.

What looks good on paper may not work in the real world because we are all humans and not everyone can work together as a team.

Originally Posted by ebonho

We simply do not have the batting depth and quality of the golden era where we had literally 5 top international batsmen.

What is the golden era you're referring to and who are those top 5 batsmen ? For years India has had great batting strength on paper but have collectively failed on many occasions and consistency has always been a problem. Of course, I'm not talking about the many home series' that we've won over the years.

[DigitalOne]

A 3 part "vlog" of England's 1993 tour of India, by an English player Dermott Reeves. Apart from the cricket and shots of the English dressing room, lots of street scenes from 1993, should keep the bhpians interested. A good bit of nostalgia...

https://youtu.be/lhLGAY1mtXE

[Emvi]

Originally Posted by NPV

What looks good on paper may not work in the real world because we are all humans and not everyone can work together as a team.

+1
Remember Deccan Chargers in the first edition of IPL? God! On paper they were the strongest team. Final result- ended up with the wooden spoon!

On the contrary, Rajasthan Royals had the weakest team on paper. To everyone's surprise, they lifted the inaugural trophy!!

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by NPV

What is the golden era you're referring to and who are those top 5 batsmen ? For years India has had great batting strength on paper but have collectively failed on many occasions and consistency has always been a problem. Of course, I'm not talking about the many home series' that we've won over the years.

I think you know which era and which 5 I am referring to.

It's not incumbent that you agree with me.

[NPV]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I think you know which era and which 5 I am referring to.

It's not incumbent that you agree with me.

Honestly, no I don't know and didn't want to assume.

And I'm perfectly fine with you or anyone else not agreeing with my views, after all that's why we have this forum here - to express our honest opinions.