[karty_83]

Originally Posted by amitoj

But if Sachin is as great a player as his fans make him out to be, then he should not have any problems in changing his batting position. The "great" man should be willing to face the new, swinging red cherry in tests by opening and should be willing to come down the order in ODIs when there are no field restrictions. Why does he have one preference for ODIs and another for tests? Maybe because he realizes his weakness, which is fine because ultimately it may benefit the team only.

But, and this is the biggest one so read carefully, do his fans realize and accept that weakness in him? NO.

Very true indeed. I still remember those days in in 02-03 , with the advent of Sehwag as a basher, Tendulkar was asked to bat at no 4. They wanted Sehwag to open with Ganguly to keep the left hand right hand combination going.
God never made the kinda runs he was used to because he never had the time and overs to do so. It was at the same time when Dravid was asked to come in at no.5/6 and back up as a keeper and that he did gleefully for his team. I am sure Dravid would have scored many more runs than he did had he continued at no.3 but the team came first and he obliged.

The team did well but Tendulkar did not(by his standards i.e. 100s) for a couple of series. Pressure from media, senior cricketers and commentators brought him back to the openers slot and the rest his history.

Agreed that Sachin is a supremely talented batsman. There are no two ways about that. But to call him the greatest ever is taking it a little too far. Fans call him the best because he has 51 test hundreds, but then he has also played 180 test matches for it.

A Garfield sobers has scored half the number of centuries in half the number of matches at a better average against better bowling attacks on more difficult pitches. What if he had also played 180 matches ? What if in this era ? No doubt he would have gone past sachin's record and lets not question Sobers credentials, he is a proven genius.

Vivian richards would have beaten all Sachin's odi records had he played for 450 odd matches. Lets not question his credentials either.

What if a Lara or a Ponting or a Kallis or a Hussey played for India and started off at the age of 16 ? With the kind of pitches we play in and bcci support , after 20 years would they have achieved any less ?

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by amitoj

LOL. If i answer that, and you dont like my reply, you are just going to say, "have you ever been inside a dressing room?!?"

So, no i am not falling for that.

My answers to the person who asks that question. I couldnt have done that with you.

Some folks here have gone to the extent saying Tendulkar plays badly at a position other then the one he likes - on purpose. You think that's true? To these I would be genuinely asking whether they peeped into the dressing room to see him sulking in the corner.

By the way, A is not the same as B. I thought you would know that, given that you have played at pro level.

Exactly. That's why he wants to play at a position of strength. And he knows his strength well. Simple.

Being a pro-player I played the opening batsman for all the years. Coming to corporate level I was asked to play at the number 3 position. I played but knew could do better. Got myself some creed within the team and asked for opening spot. I got it. Same at all levels. You earn it. You don't influence it.

But if Sachin is as great a player as his fans make him out to be, then he should not have any problems in changing his batting position.

Absolutely. And tell me you think he will struggle? He his protected for the teams good isnt he? You want him to play in a position where he needs to get adjusted to (remember pitches are set as per opening batsmen), make some bad scores if any. Eventually class will get him there. Or do you want him to come at a position where he will consistently keep getting the runs?

The "great" man should be willing to face the new, swinging red cherry in tests by opening

Why? Have we given up on getting an opener - for 20 years?

Also opening in tests is different. Way different. And you really think he will not be able to play there if he has to?

This is professional level man. Every batsman here (forget Tendulkar) can open or play at any position. You doubt it?

and should be willing to come down the order in ODIs when there are no field restrictions.

This is limited overs. The more he gets under his belt the better it is. On the same logic why not get Dhoni to open?

The risk of playing him in the opening slot and risking the few snorters in the position to go on to play a longer innings is a calculated one.

Not so in tests. And for India every team will try to get him or a Laxman first. They can bowl to him only to get his wicket never to restrict.

Why does he have one preference for ODIs and another for tests? Maybe because he realizes his weakness, which is fine because ultimately it may benefit the team only.

Over 5 years of top flight cricket you get to iron out your weaknesses and play only to your strengths. You dont let your weaknesses be exposed this is pro sport. The coaches will only strengthen your strength and avoid you playing your weaknesses. Especially when your strength is of this calibre. Makes sense?

But, and this is the biggest one so read carefully, do his fans realize and accept that weakness in him? NO.

Have I till today said SRT has no weaknesses? Whom am I kidding if I say that? But look how weaknesses are managed above.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

And purely on talent today there is no one who can replace people like - Sachin, Dravid, Laxman and a few more.

True. But the need for any team is effective batsmen. For instance, talent wise, there may not be any other opener like Gavaskar. But Sehwag is as effective. I am sure we will find effective replacements for Sachin, Dravid or Laxman.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by msdivy

I am sure we will find effective replacements for Sachin, Dravid or Laxman.

We surely will. The training sessions today are thoroughly set for making specialist players.

[lloydofcochin]

Sad to read all the hullaballoo about Sachin not opening in tests and playing for himself etc.

My humble requests to all the armchair critics is to leave that human being alone. If you guys don't want to watch him play pls switch off your TV sets and sit quiet there are a billion more who would love to watch him play in India and millions elsewhere across the world.

For me Sachin is a true mechanical genius like someone in the Sampras mould and not the Agassi one. I had a few friends who found Agassi boring during the latter half of his career since they felt that he too had become mechanical like Sampras

He is not an absolute artist like Azhar nor as elegant as a ME Waugh. His defence is as good as Gavaskar/Dravid and he can decimate an attack like a Sehwag. He is the most complete modern batsman. Remember that he never got the luxury to play the Indian bowling attack and bury it like Pietersen and Bell are doing now and I'm quite sure that folks out here does not know his worth better than guys like Donald, Warne, Brett Lee, Akram etc.

From Akram, Imran, Waqar, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop, Donald, Akthar, Lee, McGrath, Gillespie, McDermott,Bond, Murali, Warne, Abdul Qadir he has seen them all and has still come out with his reputation intact.

After Hayden & Langer retired Australia also had trouble with openers but did Ponting open? Let Sachin bat where he is comfortable at and an average of 56 at number 4 is not a bad record!

I guess in this series he is caught in 2 minds whether to attack or grind. I always felt that he batted better when he played an attacking innings and we did see glimpses of that in the last test. He will surely come good in this test.

This series loss in England is due to nothing else but bad preparation and a depleted bowling attack. We were never a great bowling unit but in the last few years some of them put their hands up and delivered the goods and our great batting line up did the rest to bury the opposition. This England unit looks formidable at home but with bowlers with 30+ averages in Test cricket it is not going to go too far.

I hope that BCCI has learnt a lesson from this tour and should do something positive to reduce the workload of our cricketers so that they play the game with real passion and not considering it as just another day in office.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Some folks here have gone to the extent saying Tendulkar plays badly at a position other then the one he likes - on purpose. You think that's true? To these I would be genuinely asking whether they peeped into the dressing room to see him sulking in the corner.

True. And it would probably be character assassination. Well, i guess his critics are also prone to flights of fancy.

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Exactly. That's why he wants to play at a position of strength. And he knows his strength well. Simple.

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Absolutely. And tell me you think he will struggle?

Also opening in tests is different. Way different. And you really think he will not be able to play there if he has to?

This is professional level man. Every batsman here (forget Tendulkar) can open or play at any position. You doubt it?

Your above two sections of statements are somewhat contradictory. I think we agree that Sachin is more comfortable batting at 4 in tests and opening in ODIs.

Anyway, I think he should have stepped up and opened for India in second test match when Gambhir got injured. I know there is no way i can say for sure whether he was asked and he refused or whether Dhoni and management are so resigned to his demand that they did not even consider asking him or whether they even considered it or not.

EDIT: It has become too painful to look at the current match's scorecard :(

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Anyway, I think he should have stepped up and opened for India in second test match when Gambhir got injured. I know there is no way i can say for sure whether he was asked and he refused or whether Dhoni and management are so resigned to his demand that they did not even consider asking him or whether they even considered it or not.

I see a convert here

EDIT: It has become too painful to look at the current match's scorecard :(

LOL!!

[carboy]

Originally Posted by amitoj

EDIT: It has become too painful to look at the current match's scorecard :(

Few years back, Pietersen scored a 150+ & hand a long partnership with another English batsman who scored 200+. England lost that match. So let's hope Bell goes on to get his double hundred.

[MrinalSinha]

Originally Posted by karty_83

Very true indeed. I still remember those days in in 02-03 , with the advent of Sehwag as a basher, Tendulkar was asked to bat at no 4. They wanted Sehwag to open with Ganguly to keep the left hand right hand combination going.
God never made the kinda runs he was used to because he never had the time and overs to do so. It was at the same time when Dravid was asked to come in at no.5/6 and back up as a keeper and that he did gleefully for his team. I am sure Dravid would have scored many more runs than he did had he continued at no.3 but the team came first and he obliged.

The team did well but Tendulkar did not(by his standards i.e. 100s) for a couple of series. Pressure from media, senior cricketers and commentators brought him back to the openers slot and the rest his history.

Agreed that Sachin is a supremely talented batsman. There are no two ways about that. But to call him the greatest ever is taking it a little too far. Fans call him the best because he has 51 test hundreds, but then he has also played 180 test matches for it.

A Garfield sobers has scored half the number of centuries in half the number of matches at a better average against better bowling attacks on more difficult pitches. What if he had also played 180 matches ? What if in this era ? No doubt he would have gone past his record , and lets not question Sobers credentials he is a proven genius.

Vivian richards would have beaten all Sachin's odi records had he played for 450 odd matches. Lets not question his credentials either.

What if a Lara or a Ponting or a Kallis or a Hussey played for India and started off at the age of 16 ? With the kind of pitches we play in and bcci support , after 20 years would they have achieved any less ?

Pure case of a statistician analyzing the game.
According to you - number of runs/ 100s scored is directly proportional to the number of games played. Which concludes that anyone playing 450 odis and 180 test matches will score 100 international hundreds.

For me this function is little more complicated.

it is a function of:
1. Number of games played - More you play, more you can score. but it is exponentially proportional with the exponent varying at various points on the timeline.
2. Fitness - If you are not fit, you cannot bat for long enough to score more runs. Also after getting few chances you will get dropped because you did not score enough.
3. Desire - Ex: Saeed anwar lost the desire to score runs.
4. longevity - For ex: Damien Martin did not last long enough to score 30k runs.
5. Quality of opposition: it is easier to score against say PK and Sreesanth than Styne and Morne Morkel.
6. Fielding standards - We give away more runs and drop catches than what say and Australian or SA side do.
7. Fitness of the opponents. - The earlier the opponents bowler tire, better it is for me. Tired fielders give easy runs.
8. Talent - If you dont have talent, you will never sustain at the top. Ex: Sameer Dighe / Vijay Dahiya / Tinu Yohannan / Ashish Kapoor etc.
9. Dedication : Azhar was talented to play many more matches and score many more runs than what he did.
10. Hard work : No one will sustain

=> No of runs scored = f1(1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9)

Also, number of games played is in-turn a function of many of the factors above 2,3,4,8 and 9 and hence can be re-written as:

f(1) = f(2,3,4,8,9)

this implies - number of matches is not an independent factor it is, in fact, a derived factor and hence over-rated. Also, most of the primary factors are non-measurable.

At the end of it, cricket is an art more than a science. It cannot be rated in numbers but can be felt by the pleasure you have out of watching an inning. The difference is in an innings played by one Shahid afridi where he muscles the ball all around the park and the artistry of a Sachin/ Rahul where the timing and placement threads the ball through the packed 9-1 field.

Now, let me try my hands on comparing apples with oranges and Sachin with the rest. If, if and buts would have happened, the earth would been flat. For the record, they were not able to do what Sachin has achieved.

Don't know whether he is the best ever. But he is the one who has brought smiles to the most number of cricket lovers in this world. For me he is second to none.

Edit: I have been very sad throughout the evening today. Someone stole my latest bat (SG Cobra Max) just seasoned and used in one game for 22 overs and 107* runs. It was in my living room as I changed the grip yesterday night and when I returned from office, I found it missing :(

[karty_83]

Originally Posted by MrinalSinha

According to you - number of runs/ 100s scored is directly proportional to the number of games played. Which concludes that anyone playing 450 odis and 180 test matches will score 100 international hundreds.

I never said anyone. I said a Sobers and Richards.
But there are and have been many good players who are and were capable of playing 450 odis and 180 test matches. Lets take our own team. If Sachin stops playing today and Dravid goes on to play 180 tests, then Dravid will go past Sachin. Will India say Dravid is better than Sachin in Tests now ? No.

Fitness - If you are not fit, you cannot bat for long enough to score more runs. Also after getting few chances you will get dropped because you did not score enough.

Totally agree. But are you saying Sachin is the fittest ? Then what do we call a Lara who has a 300,400 and a 500 to his credit ?

Desire - Ex: Saeed anwar lost the desire to score runs.

He was a classy batsman. He lost his child and his cricketing career went haywire from there. Feel sad for him.

longevity - For ex: Damien Martin did not last long enough to score 30k runs.

Martyn was a part of the Golden era of Aussie cricket. One bad series and a player gets dropped because there was another champ waiting in the wings. What if he was playing in current aussie team. Wasn't he talented enough to go on for longer?

Quality of opposition: it is easier to score against say PK and Sreesanth than Styne and Morne Morkel.

Sachin is not the only player facing Steyn and morkel. Collingwood saved a couple of matches for England batting 300 odd deliveries against Steyn and co 4th innings of a test in South Africa. Whereas Sachin was busy taking a single off the first ball and giving strike to no. 11 batsman. Will you say Collingwood is better than Sachin ? No.

Fitness of the opponents. - The earlier the opponents bowler tire, better it is for me. Tired fielders give easy runs.

Is that the reason why Sachin scores more runs ?

Talent - If you dont have talent, you will never sustain at the top. Ex: Sameer Dighe / Vijay Dahiya / Tinu Yohannan / Ashish Kapoor etc.

Why are you comparing Sachin with these blokes . I only said he is not the best. He is too good a player to mentioned in the same breath as the above.

Dedication : Azhar was talented to play many more matches and score many more runs than what he did.

Excactly. This was what i meant. There have been many talented players like Azhar and others who could have had an equally good record had they gone the distance.

Now, let me try my hands on comparing apples with oranges and Sachin with the rest. If, if and buts would have happened, the earth would been flat. For the record, they were not able to do what Sachin has achieved.
Don't know whether he is the best ever. But he is the one who has brought smiles to the most number of cricket lovers in this world. For me he is second to none.

My point is, would Sachin be any lesser a player had he retired after playing 90 odd test matches ? Would India not love him or respect him the way they are doing today had he played only 250 odis ?
Answer : We would have still said he is the best player ever who could have achieved so much more.
That brings a whole lot of other great players into the equation who were equally or better talented than Sachin but never had the privileges he had to leave a mark. So why call him the Greatest ever or God.

Don Bradman has achieved something no one else can ever beat. Makes sense to call him the best ever. If Sachin retires today, Kallis or Ponting can topple his test records. And what if they get 20+ years like Sachin ?

[harry10]

Indian bowling was always weak.
But in this series it has gone 100 feet in the ground.
Why cant we produce bowlers who bowl at 145 plus consistently.
Look at RP- he was bowling at 121km!!

I hope rain comes and atleast save this match for us.
We have a few months to sort out batting and bowling before Australia and we need to cos i got a feeling OZ media is waiting for India to falter!

I would love to join the Sachin debate going on but Spitfire is already giving the replies i would like to give.
For the record the two genuises i had seen playing are Lara and Sachin for different reasons and noone else comes closer.
BTW how many people in world cricket had been selected to play for their country at the age of 16 and had never been dropped for another 22 years?
Also he was selected without a jack or godfather. So call him great,genius or special the fact remains that the world will never see another one like him and when he retires his records may stay for eternity!

[karty_83]

Originally Posted by harry10

I
For the record the two genuises i had seen playing are Lara and Sachin for different reasons and noone else comes closer.
BTW how many people in world cricket had been selected to play for their country at the age of 16 and had never been dropped for another 22 years?
Also he was selected without a jack or godfather. So call him great,genius or special the fact remains that the world will never see another one like him and when he retires his records may stay for eternity!

It depends on the team configuration. A player like hussey had to wait for 28 years to make his debut. So does it mean he wasn't good enough ? Indian batting was in shambles when Sachin made his debut in 89. More like how are bowling is at present. Its always easier to walk into a brittle team than a set team.

PS : Only rain can save this test match for us .
What if our bowling attack comprised of Wasim, Waqar, Kumble and Saqlain to go with the trio of Sachin, Dravid and Laxman. Any team to take on us . Dream team indeed

[WindRide]

I hope rain stays away so that our mainline batsmen can display their prowess on what is now a good batting wicket.

Even if we get beaten, it will only help us in the near future. A 4-0 result should help wake up BCCI to more meaningful schedules and selectors to give importance in creating a good reserve bench.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by karty_83

I never said anyone. I said a Sobers and Richards.
But there are and have been many good players who are and were capable of playing 450 odis and 180 test matches. Lets take our own team. If Sachin stops playing today and Dravid goes on to play 180 tests, then Dravid will go past Sachin. Will India say Dravid is better than Sachin in Tests now ? No.

So then what stopped Sobers and Richards from playing 500 ODIs an 200 tests?

That brings a whole lot of other great players into the equation who were equally or better talented than Sachin but never had the privileges he had to leave a mark. So why call him the Greatest ever or God.

You are just giving excuses for others. What stopped other "better talents" to achieve what Sachin has achieved then???

Don Bradman has achieved something no one else can ever beat. Makes sense to call him the best ever. If Sachin retires today, Kallis or Ponting can topple his test records. And what if they get 20+ years like Sachin ?

Sachin has also achieved something I think nobody can beat (at least in my lifetime). And that is 30000 international runs. I can guarantee you both Kallis and Ponting wont come near to that!

I've never seen Sir Don bat so not qualified enough to comment but he scored his runs only against one opponent (Eng). He did not have to face bowlers of the caliber of Warne, Mcgrath, Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Steyn, Murali etc. I'm not sure if his average would have been as legendary against these as it today stands (more so if he had played 100+ tests/20 years of cricket). People cant beat his average because cricket is more evolved now. Thanks to computers, both the bowlers and batsmen are simply more prepared. Bowlers know everything about batsmen - their strengths and weaknesses. Also in general, fitness levels are better and fielding is superior compared to Bradman era. one more difference is "TV umpiring" which means more accurate decisions (remember the old "batsman gets benefit of doubt").

I've love to see Bradman come and bat in present times and beat Sachin. Since thats not possible, its not possible to objectively compare greats of the past with present greats.

[NPV]

Seems like only the weather gods can save the 'strong' Indian batting lineup from another humiliating defeat - we generally need just about 4 days to complete a losing test match so we are well on target. As usual, it's will be a pitch where the English batsmen will score a lot of runs but it will be batting-unfriendly for the Indians. Ditto with our bowlers versus theirs ! This is the story of our lives now