[Hatari]

Originally Posted by msdivy

True, Indian selectors are not stupid. They had sacked Dhoni 2 years back. But it isn't a mystery that selectors were sacked to retain Dhoni.

Regarding names, anyone of remaining 15 in the team (leaving Dhoni) will do a better job in tests. Or do you think it will get worse than worst?

Dhoni's strategy won us the Lords test, when even the bowler didnt want to follow what he said.
If the batting doesnt score more than 150, a captain cant perform miracles with tactics.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Dhoni's strategy won us the Lords test, when even the bowler didnt want to follow what he said.
If the batting doesnt score more than 150, a captain cant perform miracles with tactics.

Ya. One strategy out of 100 worked so let's rejoice. What about the brilliant strategy of having a leg slip for medium pacers in the complete tour. How many wickets that yielded? Zero.
Instead the same fielder could have been placed in 4th catching slip where so many edges flew or even deployed at the third man to save crucial runs. But, no he was completely wasted in all innings.

I can point too many things but then everyone knows what's wrong. He isn't capable of winning tests abroad. How much more proof we need after losing series after series. Chuck winning, his team isn't even competing. And I don't agree with what captain can do if batting is failing. Whose job is it to make sure they are motivated to perform for their country. Didn't English batsman like bell who were out of form got back into form after Lords debacle. If English team can raise their level of play what's wrong with Indian players.

The main difference is English players are accounted for. They don't perform they will be shown the door. Here Dhoni and Co. Knows nothing will change so keep doing what they like.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by harry10

I can point too many things but then everyone knows what's wrong. He isn't capable of winning tests abroad.

He isn't capable? This team, the so called greatly talented batsmen in this team were beaten black and blue to pulp. They could not stand up and fight - forget fighting, even Bhuvi batted and 'looked' ten times than any batsman in this team. If your top order is worse off than your tailenders - NO TEAM in the world can win.
Agreed MSD has his stupid theories about getting people out - I still cannot figure out that leg-slip. The only logical explaination I have is that bowlers were bowling both sides of the wicket and that was to prevent or probably get a lucky catch.

It is time that we actually prioritized Test Cricket. The BCCI only has money on its mind hence the IPL supersedes everything. Do you think that any player is stupid enough to stand up to its own board and never be even selected for the Indian Team.

How did he previous generation become great? Oh Yes, they played in different leagues around the world. Every single one of them. Has anyone is this team done so? I hear Pujara is looking for a stint -and he had to ask for permission from BCCI?

There is no point criticizing someone just for the heck of it. The system itself is rotten. I read somewhere MSD saying to Irfan, that he wants him fit for the England series. It was a comment on him getting fit only for the IPL.

MSD might be the least talented guy in this team but he is a fighter and he is very honest with himself. For all we know, he is probably thinking of leaving the Test team right now - But if you ask me, we need him more than ever. But is there anyone who can tame the system that is in place by the BCCI? That is my question. Changing players, skipper or coach won't help.
On second thoughts, maybe lets coax getting Gary back as coach.

[NPV]

BCCI does not have the will to improve our Test team, they're interested only in milking the shorter formats especially the IPL T20 cash cow. In fact, the players themselves may not be interested since it takes a toll on their fitness and what's in it compared to money in the shorter formats, more moolah is all they want And for the record we were crowned #1 test team in the recent past (less than 7 yrs. ago I think) albeit for a short period so that is a "Check" so why bother, it's not an emergency!

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

For all we know, he is probably thinking of leaving the Test team right now - But if you ask me, we need him more than ever.

In what capacity? Batsman? WK? Captain?

Dhoni, a small town boy, has grown in stature. He is now very senior official (VP of India Cements) in Corporate India. His is now worth 150 million $$$, more than any cricketer on the planet. He has excellent cricketing talent. But cricketing talents alone didn't get him up to this level. All these due to uncle Srinivasan's blessings.

He has become so big that nobody (within team, BCCI or India) can point out his mistakes. Selectors have realized that any reference to Dhoni's captaincy will cost them their jobs. So they select rest of the team.

Strangely, Dhoni has to captain every side he plays and he plays more international cricket than any other players. This has affected his keeping skills, like:
1) He stands more back than necessary - affects slip fielding
2) He doesn't go for catches between WK & 1st slip
3) he doesn't run to wicket after shot is played (somebody else does)
4) He stands upright as the bowler runs in, earlier he used to crouch.

If your top order is worse off than your tailenders - NO TEAM in the world can win.

Earlier, Dhoni was lucky overseas, since one guy pitched in and defeat was not that humiliating. This time when top order failed, he didn't have an answer. Note that if this had happened in ODI, T20s, he definitely would have an answer. Tests are not Dhoni's cup of tea.

Ref: How bad must a defeat be to be unacceptable?

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by harry10

Ya. One strategy out of 100 worked so let's rejoice. What about the brilliant strategy of having a leg slip for medium pacers in the complete tour. How many wickets that yielded? Zero.
Instead the same fielder could have been placed in 4th catching slip where so many edges flew or even deployed at the third man to save crucial runs. But, no he was completely wasted in all innings.

I can point too many things but then everyone knows what's wrong. He isn't capable of winning tests abroad. How much more proof we need after losing series after series. Chuck winning, his team isn't even competing. And I don't agree with what captain can do if batting is failing. Whose job is it to make sure they are motivated to perform for their country. Didn't English batsman like bell who were out of form got back into form after Lords debacle. If English team can raise their level of play what's wrong with Indian players.

The main difference is English players are accounted for. They don't perform they will be shown the door. Here Dhoni and Co. Knows nothing will change so keep doing what they like.

So he captains ok in tests in India (record proves it) but abroad we lose due to bad captaincy. Scoring less than 150 is both innings is bad captaincy?

Originally Posted by msdivy

Strangely, Dhoni has to captain every side he plays

Why does India's most successful captain, captain every side he plays in?
Hmmm

and he plays more international cricket than any other players. This has affected his keeping skills, like:
1) He stands more back than necessary - affects slip fielding
2) He doesn't go for catches between WK & 1st slip
3) he doesn't run to wicket after shot is played (somebody else does)
4) He stands upright as the bowler runs in, earlier he used to crouch.

So he should be sacked from captaincy because of his poor keeping?
Resting himself like he did against Bangladesh is not the answer then?

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Hatari

So he captains ok in tests in India (record proves it) but abroad we lose due to bad captaincy. Scoring less than 150 is both innings is bad captaincy?

Scoring 150 is a factor but opposition scoring 400 is bad captaincy. Majority of Dhoni's decisions in tests are baffling. He draws games from possible winning positions. In tests, Dhoni's doesn't take control like he does in ODI, T20I, when the opposition is batting. Dhoni lacks the killer instinct in tests and so the team has lost the fighting ability in tests under him.

Why does India's most successful captain, captain every side he plays in?

He might be most successful captain. But he is also most unsuccessful captain

So he should be sacked from captaincy because of his poor keeping?

Dhoni should not captain India in tests due to his poor tactics. Whether he should continue as WK is different call.

Resting himself like he did against Bangladesh is not the answer then?

Resting for 3 days cricket against a team you just have to turn up to win ..

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by msdivy

In what capacity? Batsman? WK? Captain?

I think I made myself very clear - We need him as the skipper. Yes, he is not ideal but is there anyone out there? If there was, he would have been replaced already.

Originally Posted by msdivy

Earlier, Dhoni was lucky overseas, since one guy pitched in and defeat was not that humiliating. This time when top order failed, he didn't have an answer.

Dhoni was lucky overseas? You seriously have to be joking here. Zaheer khan breaking down on the 1st day of a Test? His openers always failing to deliver? Big guns most of the time? And a joke of a bowling attack? Yeah, he was lucky he inherited such a great team.

If MSD did not bat the way he did in this series, I shudder to think would India have crossed 100 in the last 3 Tests?

[srishiva]

As Dhoni pointed out, India lost the previous series 4-0 with greats in the side. This is a younger side

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by srishiva

As Dhoni pointed out, India lost the previous series 4-0 with greats in the side. This is a younger side

You forgot to add 'past-it, has-been' before greats. That's the crux of all our problems. We live on reputations made years ago, not current performance. What also makes it worse is we have no proper setup to replace non-performers, so 'there's nobody else' becomes our perennial excuse to continue with the same non-performers. That the situation exists in a country with the richest administrative board that can afford the best of facilities and training/grooming methods is utterly shameful.

A lot of Indian 'greats' would be long-retired (and probably never get a chance to amass their staggering statistics) if they were playing for a country that took pride in its international cricket and was intolerant of non-performers (like Australia, for example).

[NPV]

Originally Posted by srishiva

As Dhoni pointed out, India lost the previous series 4-0 with greats in the side. This is a younger side

There's always 100 or more reasons (read excuses) for failure and greatness lies in deflecting the blame

[Eddy]

In hindsight, what do you guys think could have Dhoni done differently to win this series ? Not to invest in the future etc, but win this particular series ? Squad selection, team selection etc etc

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by Eddy

In hindsight, what do you guys think could have Dhoni done differently to win this series ? Not to invest in the future etc, but win this particular series ? Squad selection, team selection etc etc

For starters, he should've insisted he won't take the team into a long test series unprepared. There wasn't a single 'proper' competitive practice match (the 4-day games against select XIs that usually happen before/during a tour, at least they used to), so the team had no chance to either acclimatize before or make adjustments during the series.

Would India have won? Impossible to tell. Would India have fared better, most definitely.

We could've done better even with the same limited-ability squad (forget changing anything), if we'd prepared better, or rather at all. We just don't take our test cricket seriously anymore. It usually gets masked on dead run-feast pitches back home, but we get horribly shown up overseas. The likes of Kohli and Pujara have a lot of introspection to do. I believe those two took the worst 'reputation' hit with this failure, given they were touted as long-term replacements for Dravid and Tendulkar's spots in the Test XI.

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by Eddy

In hindsight, what do you guys think could have Dhoni done differently to win this series ? Not to invest in the future etc, but win this particular series ? Squad selection, team selection etc etc

1. I still don't get why don;t we play ODIs before Test Matches? One could at-least get the feel of the conditions and be better prepared.
2. Once Ishant was gone - we needed to get a senior fellow back in the side, I would have gone for Zak
3. Aaron should have been playing instead of Shami from the 3rd Test itself - Shami clearly looked a distant shadow of what we saw in India
4. That Bloody leg slip should have been at 3rd Man - we conceded more than 27% of the runs there.
5. Once we lost that badly in the 3rd Test - we should have had some of the greats - Rahul/Sachin/Saurav talk to these guys - they looked so horribly down at that game
6. I would made Rahane come at 3,Pujara at 4 & Kohli 5 from the 4th Test
7. Slip Catching- Someone needed to bloody work on it. Dhawan, Jadeja, Kohli was disastrous there and they should have been out of that place since the 3rd Test

Some of the things I could think of. Unlike losing an ODI Series, losing a Test series this bad hurts, I am sure the players are hurt too. I am amazed no one seemed to help.

I would kick Fletcher out NOW.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by pratyush6

I would kick Fletcher out NOW.

All good points and I agree with most, except the above. I think India should get rid of the coach position altogether. It's pretty obvious that coach has limited or no power over the team anyway (irrespective of who holds the post).

We don't like strong-minded disciplinarian coaches (egos before progress is our motto), and we denigrate the softer ones as being ineffective. The cricketing setup in India sucks, and no coach can change that. We'll see short periods of success when everything clicks (as under Gary Kirsten), but sustained good-performance or domination will need grassroots level changes and ongoing commitment to excellence in youth cricket, which I don't think BCCI is interested in.

The time isn't far away when no self-respecting coach will want anything to do with the Indian team.