[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by Surprise

What about the 2nd Match? Is that too not a series decider?

Nope, nor was the crucial innings along with Sehwag against the Pak's in the WC or the run to the finals against the Aussies at Sharjah or taking on Shane Warne in the test series in India and showing the world that Warne is human too and not some magician for every batsmen to shiver playing him on turning wickets. The list could get endless like this. None of this matters actually. Its a one man show. Given the experience he has he is bound to lead by example in the finals too. He is immortal, atleast to some.

[normally_crazy]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Your hatred towards Sachin

He is there to stay until he/the management deems him fit enough to play.

PS: Sachin is a very intelligent cricketer, and the last thing he will want to retire on a bad note. I somehow a feeling there is something special yet to come before he takes a final raise of the bat.

McL - Its not hatred, its FRUSTRATION - frustration at the way the RUN MAKING MACHINE always (in the last decade, except a few knocks here and there) has failed to score when it matters. Well what use are the 15000 runs if he can't get the team home ?

He will stay until he wants to and not the management deeming him fit - no one in the current or future management has/will have guts to ask him to leave - and the saddest part of our cricket.

I hope too that he comes with something special - like he was and not like what he is. No one likes to watch Sachin push , prod and dabble his way to runs making ordinary bowlers like Giles and almost club bowling like that of Bangladesh look like match winners. We want him to DOMINATE and we and he, himself knows that he has the ability, then why ?

So you see it all starts and ens with FRUSTRATION.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by normally_critic

has failed to score when it matters.

Maybe he gets too tensed you know . Besides, I do not think its only the finals that count as "when it matters". Comeon, being a cricket fan and a keen observer of the game you ought to know that.

Well what use are the 15000 runs if he can't get the team home ?

Have you ever thought how many of those 15,000 runs helped India to get closer to a victory or a victory. Besides, he is a bad finisher and its been widely accepted. I don't see why he is being singled out, aren't there other to do this job as well? Its a team game you know.

He will stay until he wants to and not the management deeming him fit - no one in the current or future management has/will have guts to ask him to leave - and the saddest part of our cricket.

What baba. Didn't we think the same about our beloved Captain from Hyderabad? And off lately Veeru? Could anyone imagine he would be dropped irrespective of the number of failures because of his reputation to be overshadowing Sachin? Atleast I thought no one would dare do it. NC, when the time comes it will happen. Trust me. Right now just like we are commentators too (some of them) are having fun poking fingers at the Little Genius.

No one likes to watch Sachin push , prod and dabble his way to runs

That is a matter of debate. With time your responsibilities in the team changes. More so when you have a guy blazing his gun at every ball being fired at him in the form of Veeru (the Sachin's replica). He has toned down, which in my belief was the right thing to do. Maybe he is too used to being in this shell and might/might not get out of it soon. Though we should be happy as long as he is striking the ball at a strike rate of 80 or above and keeping his wicket. Its just like say in a test match at Bangalore Warney went from complete offensive attack to defensive by bowling way outside the leg stump seeing the situation. Priorities change.

almost club bowling like that of Bangladesh look like match winners.

On their given day any side can be a match winner. All it takes is for the opposition to play bad. Thats what I love about this game. Remember Bangladesh took out Pakistan too. Then in one game gave a real close fight to the might Aussies as well. And infact beat the Aussies. Where was the formidable Aussie bowling, batting and fielding then?

So you see it all starts and ens with FRUSTRATION.

Let me give you a simple solution. Watch a movie instead .

[normally_crazy]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Maybe he gets too tensed you know . Besides, I do not think its only the finals that count as "when it matters". Come on, being a cricket fan and a keen observer of the game you ought to know that.

tensed ?

Have you ever thought how many of those 15,000 runs helped India to get closer to a victory or a victory.

Thats why I said the last decade, if you read my post. I don't remember a match winning innings against a quality team after that rocking knock against Pakistan in the 2003 WC. I am growing old and my memory is failing, you can remind me if you remember any more knocks

Besides, he is a bad finisher and its been widely accepted. I don't see why he is being singled out, aren't there other to do this job as well? Its a team game you know.

Ok got it - he is bad finisher but great milestone and record breaker. So his job in the team is to try and win matches but if he can't lets ensure he makes the records for himself and India, while the 10 others try and win the game ?

What baba. Didn't we think the same about our beloved Captain from Hyderabad? And off lately Veeru? Could anyone imagine he would be dropped irrespective of the number of failures because of his reputation to be overshadowing Sachin? Atleast I thought no one would dare do it. NC, when the time comes it will happen. Trust me. Right now just like we are commentators too (some of them) are having fun poking fingers at the Little Genius.

Hyderabad means Azhar - or you meant West Bengal and Saurav Dada ? Dada deserved to be dropped when he was, he made a come back but we all can clearly see that he is not the same force that he was. But I think if he is in the team inspite of mediocre performances, he is blocking the way for a younger , fitter and maybe better player.

That is a matter of debate. With time your responsibilities in the team changes. More so when you have a guy blazing his gun at every ball being fired at him in the form of Veeru (the Sachin's replica). He has toned down, which in my belief was the right thing to do. Maybe he is too used to being in this shell and might/might not get out of it soon. Though we should be happy as long as he is striking the ball at a strike rate of 80 or above and keeping his wicket. Its just like say in a test match at Bangalore Warney went from complete offensive attack to defensive by bowling way outside the leg stump seeing the situation. Priorities change.

McL - i absolutely agree that priorities and roles in a team change but slowing down always nearing a hundred 9using this just as an example) even when there are 5-7 overs to go is not acceptable. And if that happens frequently, then i don't know what to say.

On their given day any side can be a match winner. All it takes is for the opposition to play bad. Thats what I love about this game. Remember Bangladesh took out Pakistan too. Then in one game gave a real close fight to the might Aussies as well. And infact beat the Aussies. Where was the formidable Aussie bowling, batting and fielding then?

I agree. Form on a given day makes the difference and thats why as you say cricket is a game of glorious uncertainties. Maybe the Aussies or Pakis had a bad day or maybe the matches were fixed.

Let me give you a simple solution. Watch a movie instead .

Not a bad idea at all.

Chal thats it - bas now. This is a never ending discussion, will carry it out again when Sachin fails or suceeds, hehehe. Lets concentrate on the Pakistan match now.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by NC

I am growing old and my memory is failing, you can remind me if you remember any more knocks

Well, the penultimate match against SA .

I am growing old and my memory is failing, you can remind me if you remember any more knocks

I hope you do remember a match against pakistan where he scored a 95 at Lahore in Feb 2006. Yuvraj and Dhoni sealed it off after he provided the platform. Which is what I am exactly trying to say. Then again a 100 & a 93 against WI. 102 against NZ after the world cup. 100 against Aus at Gwalior soon after World Cup for which he won MOTM award.

Hyderabad means Azhar

Haan.

Dada deserved to be dropped when he was

True. It was a matter of when actually rather than whether he would be dropped or not.

he is blocking the way for a younger , fitter and maybe better player.

Name one player who could take his place? Currently he is the 5th highest scorer in world cricket. What a come back.

but slowing down always nearing a hundred 9using this just as an example) even when there are 5-7 overs to go is not acceptable.

I have mentioned this earlier. Thats the way he tackles his nerves. Whereas Gilly and Matty go all out(risk factor involved). Besides, honestly tell me if you were nearing a hundred wouldn't you want to get there too? I can show you almost 90% of worlds batsmen do this. Nothing wrong. Players are remembered for their stats at the end of their career, not for one or two good knocks. Agreed?

Maybe the Aussies or Pakis had a bad day or maybe the matches were fixed.

While the later half is debatable, I guess match fixing is not that easy anymore. Apart from the Aussies having a bad day the Bangla boys played well. Comeon, give them some credit. Weren't we Indian's the team to stop the Aussie Juggernaut? No one thought India would be that team. Even I didn't. But all credit to Bhajji & Co.

Chal thats it - bas now. This is a never ending discussion

Damn! Next time highlight such points. Look at the trouble I went through typing all this nonsense . Peace out.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Currently he is the 5th highest scorer in world cricket. What a come back.

Umm... but currently he is not even in the top 10 batsmen! In fact, he is not even in the top 20 ODI Batsmen currently!!
ICC Rankings

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Umm... but currently he is not even in the top 10 batsmen! In fact, he is not even in the top 20 ODI Batsmen currently!!
ICC Rankings

ICC Rankings are based on a lot of factors and not the runs alone. Like strength of opposition, country of play etc. There are no clear cut rules and I find it hard to digest and their method of ranking is highly debatable. Look at this:

LG ICC Cricket Rankings

Btw, here is another list to prove my point.

Cricinfo - Records - 2007 - One-Day Internationals - Most runs

[normally_crazy]

This game is truly addictive - I mean cricket.

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Well, the penultimate match against SA

I thought yuvraj and karthik played better and kept the nerves to finish it off.

I hope you do remember a match against pakistan where he scored a 95 at Lahore in Feb 2006. Yuvraj and Dhoni sealed it off after he provided the platform. Which is what I am exactly trying to say. Then again a 100 & a 93 against WI. 102 against NZ after the world cup. 100 against Aus at Gwalior soon after World Cup for which he won MOTM award.

That makes it more frustrating na yaar - why not finish off what you start ? And its not like he does not have the ability. 100 ke baad he starts hitting out like there is no tomorrow, come on he has the talent and ability to finish off teams batting textbook style.

Name one player who could take his place?

I might be sticking my neck out here but I think Kaif, Gambhir, Utthapa, and Manoj Tiwary (I'm damn impressed by him,seen him bat) are waiting for longer chances.

I have mentioned this earlier. Thats the way he tackles his nerves. Whereas Gilly and Matty go all out(risk factor involved). Besides, honestly tell me if you were nearing a hundred wouldn't you want to get there too? I can show you almost 90% of worlds batsmen do this. Nothing wrong. Players are remembered for their stats at the end of their career, not for one or two good knocks. Agreed?

I think Gilly also would not be remembered for his stats or one /two good knocks. He would be remembered as the most destructive one day batsman-keeper from Australia who won them more matches than "the best batsman in the world" did for his team. Which is better now ?

Apart from the Aussies having a bad day the Bangla boys played well. Come on, give them some credit.

Hmm let me think about giving them credit

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

ICC Rankings are based on a lot of factors and not the runs alone. Like strength of opposition, country of play etc.

The rankings that use these factors are actually a better measure of a player's form and ability than mere number of runs scored or batting average or number of centuries. You can get runs by scoring against teams like Bangladesh and Bermuda too but its the rankings that will tell you where the player stands with respect to others, as these rankings take the opposition into factor as well.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

That makes it more frustrating na yaar - why not finish off what you start ?

Simple. Not everything goes according to plan. Just like inspite of being on 200 one can edge a ball or get beaten. Shame to shame.

to finish off teams batting textbook style.

Since the advent of Gilly, Jayasurya, Afridi & Sehwag no one believes in textbook style anymore . They want a 6 of every ball. You too.

I might be sticking my neck out here but I think Kaif, Gambhir, Utthapa, and Manoj Tiwary (I'm damn impressed by him,seen him bat) are waiting for longer chances.

Correction. Kaif has been given extended periods. Though he will be back in the team soon. Atleast I am praying. Gambhir has been given 24 ODI's, Robin had been given 11 matches. I am yet to recollect one knock from them that they had the opposition reeling on the floor.

I think Gilly also would not be remembered for his stats or one /two good knocks. He would be remembered as the most destructive one day batsman-keeper from Australia who won them more matches than "the best batsman in the world" did for his team. Which is better now ?

That question my friend, I would love to ask when Australian dominance is going to be replaced by some other team. Anyone remembers Mark or Steve Waugh now? Two years back no one would have believed people would want Sachin to retire. Lekin aaj dekho. I have a full gang of friends trying to prove me wrong. Cricket memory short term memory. Chalo admit karo ?

The rankings that use these factors are actually a better measure of a player's form and ability than mere number of runs scored or batting average or number of centuries. You can get runs by scoring against teams like Bangladesh and Bermuda too but its the rankings that will tell you where the player stands with respect to others, as these rankings take the opposition into factor as well.

Bhaisaab, agreed hey. Lekin, what if India only gets to play teams like WI, Bangladesh, Ireland in the process? As you say only India has hardly had quality team to play with since the beginning of the year. Obvious ke ratings kharab honge? But, what I find incredible is that a man who was said to be out of contention from the ODI side comes back and scores the 5th highest runs as of today that too at an average of almost 60 (why aren't the others able to better him against these minnows then? Ting tong ting tong any ghantees ringing?). Still there are a few more series against the top teams baaki. Let us dekhe hota hey kya.

[normally_crazy]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Correction. Kaif has been given extended periods. Though he will be back in the team soon. Atleast I am praying. Gambhir has been given 24 ODI's, Robin had been given 11 matches. I am yet to recollect one knock from them that they had the opposition reeling on the floor.

Not everyone is equally talented na dost ? Some succeed immediately , some take time to hit the groove. Sachin scored his 1st one-day hundred after what 79 matches (correct me, I might be wrong).

Anyone remembers Mark or Steve Waugh now?

I do - I still worship Steve Waugh. Inspite of being less than 1/100th talented than Sachin (taken only as an example) he won more matches only on his determination and fighting qualities. Mark was a waste of a player.

Chal chod yaar - next time we grab a beer and watch the match togather.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

Not everyone is equally talented na dost ? Some succeed immediately , some take time to hit the groove. Sachin scored his 1st one-day hundred after what 79 matches (correct me, I might be wrong).

Ekdum barobar. But coming down the order, in those grassy/dusty uncovered pitches back in the 90's he always gave good knocks every now and then. Besides he didn't to bat on 30 such occasions in the 79 odd matches. Woh bhi counts na?

I do - I still worship Steve Waugh. Inspite of being less than 1/100th talented than Sachin (taken only as an example) he won more matches only on his determination and fighting qualities. Mark was a waste of a player.

You are a true phanka of cricket. I am proud of you. Don't you ever forget Srikant (for he though the world how to take ODI batting), Vivian Richards, Sir Donal Bradman, Ian Botham, Jole Garner, Sunny, Bishan Singh Bedi, Chandrashekar, Zaheer Abbas, Imran Khan, David Boon, David Gower, Garry Sobers, Dennis Lillee, Mike Gatting (in no particular order) too OK?

Chal chod yaar - next time we grab a beer and watch the match togather.

Aaakhri baar I am saying. Highlight kar yaar. LIKE THIS. Toh bangy kab aaraha hey?

[MC Mayank]

This entire debate on Sachin and his performances and Mcl defending him left right and centre.

Mcl - the jist of your argument in favour of Sachin is really this - its age, responsibilities change, his body has changed, he can't be like he used to play earlier, sehwag took over the responsibility, old school says one of the partners should dominate so Sachin is still the greatest, he still gets India closer to victory, yadi yadi yada yadi yadi yada.

Dude there is nothing new in what you are saying. Coaches have taught partners to complement each other since over a century. Age definitely has never made a player run up and down valleys and sing like Julie Andrews in The Sound of Music. And it would definitely be hallelujah time if a batsman of Sachin's class started playing as rashly & irresponsibly as Sehwag recently has when both were at the crease.

I certainly don't have the stats that you have at your fingertips, but I'll give you a few names from the same league who I consider have had a similar affect on upsetting bowlers' lines, lengths and tummies in the past. And from recent past:

1. Brian Lara
2. Sanath Jayasuriya
3. Adam Gilchrist

My argument:
1. They aren't exactly in their early twenties dashing around trees singing along as they rescue damsels in distress - are they?
2. None of them in my opinion comes even a mile close to Sachin's technique, his ability to pick the line and the ability to read the bowler's mind (this last point I know from personal interactions with some very interesting ppl from the cricketing world )
3. Yet, Sachin would probably not make it to no. 4 in that list as a match winning player. I think that is sad.

Dude you don't need someone to tell you that age will change your body reflexes, but the innings we saw in the 2nd ODI in Belfast and a couple we have seen earlier this year have been a clear indication of the fact that Sachin still has a lot in him. Things which other players don't have and things that bowlers still find very hard to figure out. And that is what makes all of this frustrating. in 98/99 also Sachin had all the pressure on him - in fact more so because you know what our line-up used to be back then. But he delivered. And over the last 6 yrs, he has just let the expectations burden him. Signs in the recent past have been good. But the last match was again a case in point of him getting dismissed in a very ordinary fashion. I only hope that he can shrug off whatever these evil thoughts are that plague his mind and get back to what he does best - His ability to make bowlers dance to his tunes with his natural instinct. It might not be as good as what we saw in Sharjah, but with his class, it doesn't have to be.

And as far as complementing partners. Well ok I agree. But again:
1. Sanath and Kalu
2. Hayden and Gilly

There are more examples but then again I am sure when big Mat is going strong the last thing you would hear Gilly come up to him and say is "Alright Matty, thoo pail, main single leta hoon"

[rohan_fonseca]

Originally Posted by MC Mayank

There are more examples but then again I am sure when big Mat is going strong the last thing you would hear Gilly come up to him and say is "Alright Matty, thoo pail, main single leta hoon"

Thats hilarious.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by MC Mayank

This entire debate on Sachin and his performances and Mcl defending him left right and centre.

Mayank, do realize that I get nothing by defending Sachin. He ain't going to get me into the team or let me drive his Ferrari. The only point I am trying to make is people remain in form and then have a rough patch, this has been the case since time immemorial. Besides, all I am asking is for you guys to just treat this as a game in which you win or you loose. And stop being arm chair critics teaching guys how to play. If you think you can do a better job go ahead and do it.

its age

If my memory serves me right, I don't think I have mentioned his age to be one of the prime causes for his poor string of failures. If it was we would have seen him out of the team quite a while back, along with Ganguly. But have a look at him running between the wickets, he is as fast as most of the boys.

And from recent past:

1. Brian Lara
2. Sanath Jayasuriya
3. Adam Gilchrist

1. Brian Lara - So when do you think was the last time Lara scored a century before the world cup? 5 matches? 10 matches? Nope, it was way back in 2004/2005 vs Australia at Adelaide. Since then till the end of the WC he has had only 6 scores of 50 and above in 49 matches. I would call that really terrorising the opposition?

2. Sanath Jayasuriya - 19 runs in the last 5 matches he has played this year. Though year 2006 was a good one for him with 8 MOTM awards from 26 games. With just two MOTM awards each in 2004 & 2005.

3. Gilchrist - Probably has the best results among the three. Though the gap between two centuries was a good 33 matches. With about 7 50's during that period.

The point I am trying to make is about FORM. Not everybody can be in form throughout the year. All of the guys you have mentioned above have at some point or the other have been out of form for extended periods of time. So, lets stop singling out a particular player.

And as far as complementing partners. Well ok I agree. But again:
1. Sanath and Kalu
2. Hayden and Gilly

Also depends on mentality/ temperment of the players. Besides, they think they have the batting depth to go on full attack mode even after loosing 3 quick wickets. I do hope you know the current status of the Indian team and their phenominal consistency?

Infact, Mayank I was wondering. Since the Coach's place for the Indian Team is still empty, why don't you apply and bring about the radical changes you hope to either restore Sachin back in form/throw him out of the team? You will have a stiff competition from quite a few here you know.

That said, just go out there have fun watching the games no matter who wins. You are not going to be paid to see India win or loose or be employed to give out your thoughts. Besides, memories live a very short while. Within no time you would have forgotten that India had performed miserably in a series and go about your life. So why this frustration? Why this fuss?

If educated people like us can keep cribbing like this, showing our frustration I wonder how some uneducated guys who have no other jobs but terrorize the families of cricketers do. At times, I really pity the families of these cricketers for the lack of understanding on the part of us viewers.