[carboy]

National ID is good for the government. It's silly to expect a government to not support it. The problem lies with the population - it's not good for them, but a good majority of them still support it.

[nazimk24]

Originally Posted by binand

I am in the anti-Aadhar camp, and am quite disappointed with this piece of news. Unless it is non-mandatory and needed ONLY to avail subsidies, I cannot support it.

And sorry if I have missed your explanation earlier in the thread. What is your motivation if, say, the govt decides to make it mandatory and after achieving near-complete coverage, uses it to provide a free bank account to the population (in which 60 percent don't have one?).

Or bring about the various other reforms possible with a project such as this?

And how do you provide for subsidies WITHOUT making in mandatory?

The SC had asked the govt to put DBT on hold only because many folks don't have it yet, AFAIK.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by nazimk24

And sorry if I have missed your explanation earlier in the thread. What is your motivation if, say, the govt decides to make it mandatory and after achieving near-complete coverage, uses it to provide a free bank account to the population (in which 60 percent don't have one?).

In fact I heard a proposal to allow the Post Office (Bank when it comes) to administer these.

[nazimk24]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

In fact I heard a proposal to allow the Post Office (Bank when it comes) to administer these.

Absolutely. There are so many innovative things the govt could do (starting with saving fifty thousand crore through DBT) once it has such a comprehensive identification database in place.

The two primary grounds for arguments, executive order and security concerns are hollow, in my understanding. You dont kill a project for these. If you're really concerned, you provide it legal sanction and strengthen its security.

Thankfully, the govt (despite the pre-election 'fraud' gimmickery) clearly realises this is too important a project for this country's economic future (especially given the scale it has already achieved) to be sacrificed for the sake of political posturing.

[sgiitk]

@nazimk; They realised that the NPR is a non-starter vis a vis UID, i terms of the enrolment size alone, so decided to integrate them - rightly. Now let the NPR chaps do a nationality verification, esp when the documents submitted are not a passport, so something similar.

[nikhilj]

UID is a brilliant thing. If nothing, it's a Well-organized Central Database of citizens and their vital details, including Fingerprints, which will definitely come handy in criminal cases and other places.

And once every citizen gets an Adhaar Card, we can very well do away with all the generic national-level ID proofs, like Voter ID Card, PAN Card, Ration Card, etc.

Like Nordic nations, every citizen may get a bank account too, where subsidies may directly be given. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of what one can do with something like this!

[carboy]

Originally Posted by nikhilj

If nothing, it's a Well-organized Central Database of citizens and their vital details, including Fingerprints, which will definitely come handy in criminal cases and other places.

So every citizen should be treated as a criminal and his fingerprint should be stored just in case he commits a crime?

Originally Posted by nikhilj

And once every citizen gets an Adhaar Card, we can very well do away with all the generic national-level ID proofs, like Voter ID Card, PAN Card, Ration Card, etc.

Why do we want to do away with those?

[nikhilj]

Originally Posted by carboy

So every citizen should be treated as a criminal and his fingerprint should be stored just in case he commits a crime?

Why do we want to do away with those?

Not to be offensive, but if you deem "consider as a possibility" as "the one", I don't have much to say. What would you rather prefer? Your (and everyboduy else's) fingerprints stored confidentially with the Government of your country, catching robbers, rapists, and murders, in cases where they can't be..
OR
Preserving your (and everybody else's) precious little prints and have robbers, rapists, and murders get away?

[binand]

Originally Posted by nazimk24

And sorry if I have missed your explanation earlier in the thread. What is your motivation if, say, the govt decides to make it mandatory and after achieving near-complete coverage, uses it to provide a free bank account to the population (in which 60 percent don't have one?).

I didn't understand what you are saying here. If the government makes it mandatory then my motivations are irrelevant. If the government wants to provide free bank accounts to the population it can do that very well without the Aadhar card.

Originally Posted by nazimk24

Or bring about the various other reforms possible with a project such as this?

And how do you provide for subsidies WITHOUT making in mandatory?

Again I don't understand; what reforms are possible with Aadhar? Even the supporters of the project only claimed improvements in existing projects, isn't it?

As for subsidies - why does it need to be mandatory? The key subsidies are (a) Petrol/Diesel, which are on their way out, (b) LPG, which is also on its way out, and (c) Fertilizer, which many in India are not eligible. So I don't understand the mandatory argument - if someone wishes to avail any of these subsidies, let them opt for Aadhar. Rest of the world, let them stay away.

Originally Posted by nazimk24

The SC had asked the govt to put DBT on hold only because many folks don't have it yet, AFAIK.

The SC has not asked the government to put DBT on hold. The then government itself put it on hold after various Congress leaders projected it as a sure vote-loser prior to the last elections. The SC only made the Aadhar non-mandatory for government benefits and services.

Originally Posted by nazimk24

Absolutely. There are so many innovative things the govt could do (starting with saving fifty thousand crore through DBT) once it has such a comprehensive identification database in place.

Sure, get the legal backing, allay citizen's fears and get the sign-off from constitutional courts. Is that too much to ask for? The reason the government didn't want to go through that route is that it knew it could fool the people with its snake-oil features but not the courts or experts. Cobrapost (I think) proved that Aadhar cards were available in bulk by paying a few hundred a pop. In Kerala in one village everyone received two Aadhar cards with two different barcodes. And so on.

Originally Posted by nazimk24

The two primary grounds for arguments, executive order and security concerns are hollow, in my understanding. You dont kill a project for these. If you're really concerned, you provide it legal sanction and strengthen its security.

Why are these hollow? In India, executive orders have to be backed by a law passed in the parliament at its next session. If you are saying that it is a hollow, nonsensical requirement then what's the role of the parliament in law making? Similarly, why do you think the security concerns are hollow? And you are right, one should address the concerns. The UPA government did nothing - when the Standing Committee on Finance rejected Aadhar citing multiple issues with it, the UPA totally ignored the committee and granted extension after extension to the UIDAI by executive order. They completely ignored the Personal Data Protection Bill, which eventually expired at the end of the previous government's tenure.

Originally Posted by nazimk24

Thankfully, the govt (despite the pre-election 'fraud' gimmickery) clearly realises this is too important a project for this country's economic future (especially given the scale it has already achieved) to be sacrificed for the sake of political posturing.

What is the importance of this project to the economic future of the nation? I believe economic future of this nation is not in subsidies and dole schemes; it is in entrepreneurship and job creation. Apart from jobs at the presses where Aadhar is printed, it is hard to see how it enables anything.

Originally Posted by nikhilj

UID is a brilliant thing. If nothing, it's a Well-organized Central Database of citizens and their vital details, including Fingerprints, which will definitely come handy in criminal cases and other places.

The Supreme Court has very specifically said that Aadhar database cannot be used in criminal investigations.

Originally Posted by nikhilj

And once every citizen gets an Adhaar Card, we can very well do away with all the generic national-level ID proofs, like Voter ID Card, PAN Card, Ration Card, etc.

That's not true. For example, PAN Card is issued to all taxpayers, including expats and other non-citizens. And also to body corporates and HUFs. These don't get Aadhar.

Originally Posted by nikhilj

Not to be offensive, but if you deem "consider as a possibility" as "the one", I don't have much to say. What would you rather prefer? Your (and everyboduy else's) fingerprints stored confidentially with the Government of your country, catching robbers, rapists, and murders, in cases where they can't be..
OR
Preserving your (and everybody else's) precious little prints and have robbers, rapists, and murders get away?

Of course the latter, given that confidentiality or accuracy of match are not assured. There is a legal maxim called Blackstone's principle which articulates this.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by nikhilj

What would you rather prefer? Your (and everyboduy else's) fingerprints stored confidentially with the Government of your country, catching robbers, rapists, and murders, in cases where they can't be..
OR
Preserving your (and everybody else's) precious little prints and have robbers, rapists, and murders get away?

I would prefer to prevent crime rather than devising methods to catch robbers, rapists and murderers later. For this I propose that people not be allowed to go out except with government permission. Workhours should be regulated. Everyday, at work times, groups of 50 people can be accompanied by a policeman to go to work & likewise for coming back. There can be fixed time allotted to each building for vegetable and other shopping - again a policeman can accompany people in groups and make sure no one is upto any mischief. I think this will significantly reduce crime.

What would you rather prefer?
Everybody sitting at home and hence reducing robbery, rape, and murder
OR
Allowing people to go out for no rhyme or reason and have robbery, rape, and murder?

[sgiitk]

@nikhilj; Remember Aadhar will only cnform or deny but never give out the data, so the risk of fingerprints getting out is minimal. I hear the US stores fingerprints of all citizens , so ....

[carboy]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@nikhilj; Remember Aadhar will only cnform or deny but never give out the data, so the risk of fingerprints getting out is minimal. I hear the US stores fingerprints of all citizens , so ....

I am more worried about fingerprints getting into the hands of the Govt than getting out of the Govt's hands.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by carboy

I am more worried about fingerprints getting into the hands of the Govt than getting out of the Govt's hands.

Why?

Have you ever had anything stolen in your house. Well the cops will record your finger prints. So they can compare against the one found in crime scene.

Are you planing on visiting other countries, because some of those govt will record your fingerprints as well.

[binand]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@nikhilj; Remember Aadhar will only cnform or deny but never give out the data, so the risk of fingerprints getting out is minimal. I hear the US stores fingerprints of all citizens , so ....

1. The US does not store fingerprints of all citizens.

2. Why is the risk of the fingerprints getting out minimal? Who are the DBAs and vendor TAC members who have access to the database? Which countries do they live in, and what sort of security clearances have they gone through? Who has audited their access to the database? What kind of access control system is used? Are concepts/technologies like 2-factor authentication, role-based authorization, single sign-on, event correlation etc. in use? Who administers these enabling systems and what sort of clearances do these staff (and vendors) have? Which are the audit firms that audited these, and where are their reports? Multiply this by the number of vendors for UIDAI (even excluding the CIA-tainted ones). What data security standard does the UIDAI hold itself to, considering that India does not have one? Why is the UIDAI silent on these questions?

Originally Posted by bblost

Have you ever had anything stolen in your house. Well the cops will record your finger prints. So they can compare against the one found in crime scene.

Are you speaking from experience here? I recently read an article that only two FSLs (Forensic Science Laboratories) in India - Ahmedabad and Hyderabad - have the kind of accreditations required for their reports to have evidentiary value in a court of law. Even otherwise, with less than 20 FSLs all over the nation I doubt if they'd take fingerprint from petty robbery cases when even murder and terrorism cases have long lead times for forensic analysis.

Originally Posted by bblost

Are you planing on visiting other countries, because some of those govt will record your fingerprints as well.

Those are for visitors, not for citizens.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by bblost

Why?

I am not worried about others (people, countries etc) getting my info. They have very little power over me and hence can't do much. OTOH, my Govt has a lot of power over me.