[gaddiwale]

Originally Posted by knp

One of my friends, who has completed M.Sc in Bio-chemistry also interested to do Ph.D in their relevant areas. She has been trying for last few years and could not able to get any admission.
Do you guys have any suggestion of offers where she can do it in part-time, especially in/around Bangalore?

My dear friend PhD is not a course (especially part-time!), its a higest degree from an University given to person to prove or disprove a hypothesis by extensive and labour intensive research. There are no short cuts to re-search the answer of a problem through practical experiments or theoritically. One has to clear UGC-CSIR NET exam or should have a valid GATE score to get an admission for a PhD under a reputed guide in a Govt. recognized institute (IISc, TIFR, NCCS, NCBS, TISS, BARC, IITs etc) or the Universities (JNU, BHU, AMU, Mumbai University etc).

P.S.: Your truely, is a PhD in Molecular Biology from a leading cancer research institute in India, worked for a biotech company (run by India's biggest business tycoon) for 3 years and now working for an biotech MNC as Application Scientist.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by ampere

Phd is something which just teaches how to identify and a problem define it and then solve it. Since we are not adept at the stage, we have a guide who supervises this journey.
At a post doc stage, its now established, that you can tackle a problem (IDS: Identify, define & solve). So they give limited funds and see if you achieve the same thing independently.
If good then you graduate to the next stage of supervising others to "IDS" a problem.

Ampere, all your posts in this thread are like gems, very well said!

Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR

If anybody is interested, will post a guide on how to get a doctorate the honest way later on. I myself do not have one, but have seen the process up close.

Heck, will post another guide on how to get one the dishonest way too. Only if there is demand.

Please post if possible, I'm interested, would be useful for me.

Originally Posted by gaddiwale

P.S.: Your truely, is a PhD in Molecular Biology from a leading cancer research institute in India, worked for a biotech company (run by India's biggest business tycoon) for 3 years and now working for an biotech MNC as Application Scientist.

Good to find people like you around!

Spike

[anjan_c2007]

Me too here in the Doctorate members club.
I was however reading Khushwant Singh's views about PhD's.He is opposed to PhD's using "Dr" as a title / prefix before their names.He favours usage of "Dr" by the doctors and no one else.
According to him, the other category of people who have been honoured by universities with a honorary doctorate for their standing in the society are a notch worse than those who have earned their PhD's.He had illustrated one case of his late friend Dr Bharat Ram, who was the head honcho of DCM (Delhi Cloth Mills).The industrialist had donated a huge sum to an university and was honoured. Khushwant Singh says that he many a time objected to the use of "Dr" by his friend to him but to no avail.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

I was however reading Khushwant Singh's views about PhD's.He is opposed to PhD's using "Dr" as a title / prefix before their names.He favours usage of "Dr" by the doctors and no one else.

I am surprised nobody brought this up until now. Yup, I too don't like to call a PhD person as doctor. May be, just may be if the person has long list of research accomplishments after his PhD.

While in US, I had a boss with math PhD, had worked with VB programmer with psychology PhD, C++ programmer with Chemistry PhD, and some others whose branches I don't remember. None of these guys even revealed their PhD status in the first few months of working together, let alone be called as doctors. But there was one guy who revealed his PhD on his very first day at work, he was a Desi. Of course, I told him I won't call him doctor, since we all called our math PhD boss just Gerald. There was another (not colleague) who revealed at first contact, he too was Desi.

I feel it is a very Indian, the need to be called Doctor. There was this IIT PhD guy who joined directly at AST level at TCS, something that takes 7-8 years for a BE fellow. He had zero experience, but expected respect for his elevated level and IIT PhD. It was 1995, and I only had 5 years experience and was two levels below him. But I was training the project team and he was... well.. getting trained by me. In techie circles, relevant Knowledge and Experience gets more respect than any kind of Pedigree or Designation. Since he had neither K nor E, he was not getting much respect from his team. So he indirectly let me know through somebody that I should start calling him Doctor, just like his team. Well, I didn't.

[anjan_c2007]

Thanks Samurai for the information.Its true and in scientific circles (I am sure in other fields like management,engineering, technology, arts, commerce, law too) the measure is by the enlightenment the person has in his field that counts.
In our country there is a tendency to showcase such achievements, maybe to show that one is on a higher pedestal of learning than the others.

[NoMind]

@Samurai, I would really contest what you just said in this thread. There's another dimension to this issue that is being missed.
Those guys you worked with had done their Phd's in a part of science that they are now, not a part of.
Since it's not relevant to their current work, they might not want to advertise that they have phd.
plus it could be their guilty conscience playing it's part as well !(although they probably think of it as "water under the bridge")

Take it from someone who was on a doctoral track and who has many phd friends, the torturous climb to get a ph.d is so fraught with failure that getting it done finally and being called Dr.X is sweet nectar for them !

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by NoMind

Take it from someone who was on a doctoral track and who has many phd friends, the torturous climb to get a ph.d is so fraught with failure that getting it done finally and being called Dr.X is sweet nectar for them !

+1, sometimes I feel PhD students are subjected to tortures which a "Medical Doctor" seldom experiences (comprehensive viva et al.) Moreover, calling someone with a prefix Dr. is an individuals own opinion. One may not call a person a Dr. but still give respect also one may call a person Dr. and not give respect . It is all mutual.

Spike

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by NoMind

@Samurai, I would really contest what you just said in this thread. There's another dimension to this issue that is being missed.
Those guys you worked with had done their Phd's in a part of science that they are now, not a part of.
Since it's not relevant to their current work, they might not want to advertise that they have phd.
plus it could be their guilty conscience playing it's part as well !(although they probably think of it as "water under the bridge")

OTOH, it is more a cultural issue. For people from land of Dr. Bharat Rams and Dr. Thalaivaalis. the pre fix is rather is an ego boost.

Take it from someone who was on a doctoral track and who has many phd friends, the torturous climb to get a ph.d is so fraught with failure that getting it done finally and being called Dr.X is sweet nectar for them !

Again, it is extremely rare for a Ph. D. Candidate NOT to complete his course outside India. At least, in the institutions I have watched. The selection procedures and guides' requirements are very strict, that only people with the calibre and aptitude will get to commence a Ph. D. Compare the situation here - when I completed my post grad, every one was asking "aren't you joining for Ph. D.?"

Again, outside India, a significant number of institutions name these degree something else other than Ph. D., Here, it is the rare IIT or IIM which calls this course something else.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by NoMind

@Samurai, I would really contest what you just said in this thread. There's another dimension to this issue that is being missed.
Those guys you worked with had done their Phd's in a part of science that they are now, not a part of.
Since it's not relevant to their current work, they might not want to advertise that they have phd.
plus it could be their guilty conscience playing it's part as well !(although they probably think of it as "water under the bridge")

I have had this discussion with many of my PhD colleagues. Most of them felt that PhD is just a start into a research career. If you actually do some research and publish a few important papers with good peer reviews, then automatically people may start referring to you as doctor. That's the general impression I got from them.

I do know a few Indian PhDs who have accomplished a lot in their respective fields, they even have mentored a lot of PhDs. I might call them doctor, if I didn't know them on a personal basis.

Originally Posted by NoMind

Take it from someone who was on a doctoral track and who has many phd friends, the torturous climb to get a ph.d is so fraught with failure that getting it done finally and being called Dr.X is sweet nectar for them !

They might feel entitled to it, but it is their personal opinion.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

+1, sometimes I feel PhD students are subjected to tortures which a "Medical Doctor" seldom experiences (comprehensive viva et al.)

Is torture a measure of one's achievement? Actually a medical doctor (resident) in US/Europe undergoes lot more torture than most professionals thanks to 36 hour shifts. IT professionals in India too undergo punishing schedules. How about financial professionals who work 18-20 hours and are discouraged from loo breaks?

I have no reservations about calling a medical doctor as doctor. That is their professional title. If a bunch of PhDs are travelling in a flight, and if the air hostess announces "A passenger is sick, is there a doctor on board?", how many of the PhDs are going to step forward? Therefore, don't grudge the title of a medical doctor.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

One may not call a person a Dr. but still give respect also one may call a person Dr. and not give respect . It is all mutual.

Your former boss had no PhD, but had encyclopedic knowledge and immense experience. Would you respect a freshly minted PhD more than your former boss? I always respect any new person I meet. Whether it will increase or decrease over time depends on what I learn about them. If they tell me about their PhD in the first 5 minutes, and ask me to call them doctor, guess which way my respect goes?

[NoMind]

I know this thread is as subjective as it goes but here's some food for thought:
Formal titles are there for a reason. It has to be earned and it entitles the bearer respect from anyone in society. It also means the holders have to uphold the dignity of the title.

for Example, when some one is knighted, the whole world calls them "Sir"/"Dame". They are obviously entitled to it.

BTW, has anyone looked at the wiki definition for Doctor ?
Doctor (title) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now people may argue wiki's are not accurate but i think that may not apply for this post as I think people may not have been churlish enough to game the system.

Having said that, I think if you find some one not to your liking, it's better for you turn the other cheek (or walk away) rather than deal back the same hand you were given.
That would be you teaching the Doctor something !

Disclaimer: I come from a family of Doctors (as in Research)

[rkg]

Originally Posted by Samurai

If a bunch of PhDs are travelling in a flight, and if the air hostess announces "A passenger is sick, is there a doctor on board?", how many of the PhDs are going to step forward? Therefore, don't grudge the title of a medical doctor.

Very apt. If the air hostess/other passengers in train think that person with prefix Dr is a real doc and approaches him/her in emergencies, where he/she will be?

I too feel only medical doc's should be allowed to prefix Dr before their name.

I think indian railways specifically asks for it in the reservation form(if you are a medical doctor pease mentions it or some thing like that)

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Is torture a measure of one's achievement?

No, never! Did I say that?

If a bunch of PhDs are travelling in a flight, and if the air hostess announces "A passenger is sick, is there a doctor on board?", how many of the PhDs are going to step forward? Therefore, don't grudge the title of a medical doctor.

LOL. What an anecdote? A Research guys work must never be compared to a medical Doctor's work, Period! The researcher is given a title of Dr for his contribution to the humanity at large and not given any authority to treat patients. IMHO, in a situation like this "common sense" if present must take charge.

Your former boss had no PhD, but had encyclopedic knowledge and immense experience. Would you respect a freshly minted PhD more than your former boss?

Even if a person has knowledge & experience, I would respect him more for his "human nature" than the other things. Knowledge and experience can be gained over a period of time whereas "human behavior" not much. I would respect a man for his human traits be it a sweeper in a street or be it a big shot of an XYZ company.

I always respect any new person I meet. Whether it will increase or decrease over time depends on what I learn about them. If they tell me about their PhD in the first 5 minutes, and ask me to call them doctor, guess which way my respect goes?

Completely agree with you.

Spike

PS- Veteran Malayalam actor Mohanlal was awarded a title of Lt. Colonel by the Indian Army recently, does that mean he is a real Lt. Colonel? :-P.

[RX135]

I don't understand this debate over calling someone "Doctor". Doctorate for years together is associated with academics and distinguished work done in academics.

I don't get the point of not calling someone as "doctor", especially if the person has earned it through his research work for few years.

[Samurai]

Ok, let's not talk about honorary doctorates, that deserves a thread by itself.

Originally Posted by RX135

I don't get the point of not calling someone as "doctor", especially if the person has earned it through his research work for few years.

I agree, I don't mind a PhD fellow with lots of post-doctoral work with many well received published work being called doctor. That is what I said in my previous post. But a fresh PhD is not getting that honorific from me. I'll wait for a decade at least to see what he does with his PhD. For example, I can't imagine calling Chris the VB programmer as Doctor. BTW, until I saw his resume by chance, I didn't know he had a Phd in Psychology. Although we used to head-butt quite frequently then, I really respected his skills in MS-Office. He is the only one I ever knew who could use Ms-Word and MS-Excel with all menus hidden and only using keyboard. He knew every hotkey in MS-office and never used the mouse there.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Here are UGC regulations on Ph. D. registration.

gazetteenglish.pdf

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

PS- Veteran Malayalam actor Mohanlal was awarded a title of Lt. Colonel by the Indian Army recently, does that mean he is a real Lt. Colonel? :-P.

Yes - he is a real lt. colonel.

It is the territorial army. The territorial army is a group of volunteers "in reserve" who receive military training a few days a year. They may be called upon to serve in times of need. With a bunch of war films behind him, I think the army viewed him as a brand ambassador for the TA.

See

Official Website of Indian Army

In particular, the last 3 paras of that page.

I feel that has nothing to do with Hon. Doctorates.

An interesting aside. A Ph. D. holder is supposed to be well learned in his branch of knowledge. In past, both in West and East, it were members of the clergy / priests who held that reputation. Here, in KL, we call traditional doctors "vaidyans" (as in "Arya Vaidya Sala"). People performing religious rites too are called "vaidyans" - at least, there is a Sanskrit root for that. And in West, priests used to ptracist medicine in pre-medieval times.