[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by Ketan

I

I just read a couple of things about poverty in India, I was surprised to know that we are doing better. The primary causes of poverty identified were casteism, license raj, excessive regulation, favorism and inquality.

"Despite government initiatives, corporate social responsibility (CSR) remains low on the agenda of corporate sector. Only 10 percent of funding comes from individuals and corporates, and "a large part of CSR initiatives are artfully masqueraded and make it back to the balancesheet". The widening income gap between the rich and the poor over the years, has raised fears of a social backlash"

I have a question. If the government takes an person's 33% income in taxes, does not provide health service, social security, law and order and instead provides avenues for additional burden via heavy corruption, service tax blah blah tax , should the person then after all this burden be expected to be socially responsible and part with some more money to help the have nots?

As Rajiv Gandhi famously remarked. Out of every rupee of government spending barely 10 paise reaches the targeted. So with this kind of brilliant government is it now unto the common citizen and the corporate to run India?

The 'have not' votes criminals to parliament because he/she gets one biryani/ sari and a bottle of local booze. Now the criminal does nothing for him, so it is expected that the 'have' now fund the poor through CSR. Wah Wah!!!

[Ketan]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

The 'have not' votes criminals to parliament because he/she gets one biryani/ sari and a bottle of local booze. Now the criminal does nothing for him, so it is expected that the 'have' now fund the poor through CSR. Wah Wah!!!

Its all about how we look at it, the perspective and that is the one that will decide how long we will take to fix the problem. The system, corruption and such you are talking about is a parasite, living off the society/us, we are nurturing it. This looks to be needing a very positive approach or another Adolf Hitler who doesnt like all of them. The former looks to be more likely and practical.
Guys,
Sorry for lot of OT discussion by us here, but we were just trying to do some math and forsee our driving conditions in the future here.
Buddy, I guess we shall stop here, I know just this much.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by Ketan

another Adolf Hitler who doesnt like all of them.

This is the only method that will work! but of course not practical and won't happen BUT the positive approach is not going to work! These people's brains are simply like non-flash-able corrupt firmware, whatever maybe the cause of that.

I've posted here before that my phone was stolen the same way and then the second phone was attempted to be stolen, which I was able to save.

The police doesn't entertain such complaints unless I say that I lost it because of my own foolishness! by leaving it on the road or something!

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by Ketan

You're "good" because someone is owning opposite badge "bad" out there. In Apaachelonglow's terminology, its "have" and "have" nots if I understand it right. I normally try to address the cause (why have notes!) and not the symptom (have nots themselves).

These are general statements and a wiki extract which we are aware of one way or the other. Your post still does not supply a rationale to why you said the rich are contributing to poverty in this country. I hope you are able to tell us why you think so because it directly insults all the efforts and sacrifices made by anyone who is earning money.

We shall certainly stop this discussion when you share how we (including you) contribute to poverty in this country. Rich or poor are relative terms. I may think I am poor, but 100 others may think I am rich. I dont think its my responsibility if someone else earns more or less than me. Its not a problem I have created or contributed to.

In fact basic economics says the more we earn, the more we spend or invest. which in any case trickles back to the overall economy. so the rich are actually not contributing to poverty but reducing its impact by various way of generating employment. if those so called have nots want to work and not try to loot women drivers.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

The 'have not' votes criminals to parliament because he/she gets one biryani/ sari and a bottle of local booze. Now the criminal does nothing for him, so it is expected that the 'have' now fund the poor through CSR. Wah Wah!!!

Each one of us is responsible for our 'present' due to our actions earlier in this life. Despite having faced hurdles of reservation at every step of our academics, we had the guts and gumption to work hard and get educated. while we were working hard, what were these 'have nots' doing? Eveteasing at the local chowk/ nukkad?

If they had invested some efforts and worked hard they could have also been in a decent position. I have seen poorer people than these work hard and smart at getting out of the rut they were in. They dont go around looting lone women drivers to earn their daily roti. There is no justification for such behaviour.

And no. I, you or the rich guy in a German car did not create this situation for them. They have dug the hole for themselves. If they cannot help themselves despite the reservations, categories and everything else, I dont know what else will. In fact, subsidies or free housing dont help any poor person. they just help the opportunists. The working class have subsidised the freebies more than enough already.

[Ketan]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

These are general statements and a wiki extract which we are aware of one way or the other. Your post still does not supply a rationale to why you said the rich are contributing to poverty in this country. I hope you are able to tell us why you think so because it directly insults all the efforts and sacrifices made by anyone who is earning money.

We shall certainly stop this discussion when you share how we (including you) contribute to poverty in this country. Rich or poor are relative terms. I may think I am poor, but 100 others may think I am rich. I dont think its my responsibility if someone else earns more or less than me. Its not a problem I have created or contributed to.

Selfdrive, you're saying these are general statements and all are aware of it, I wasnt, and I learnt a bit more after reading. I may be less informed than you. If you are already aware of it, nothing more to feed.
These statements are proven with scientific data to support them, you may have different logic behind not believing them is a good thing, you are about to invent and prove a new theory to the world.

As we know, everything can have different perspectives and can easily be interpreted in multiple different ways. I've interpreted it in certain way that tells me exactly what its written there in those wiki articles. This very defending approach that I'm directly insulting 'rich' people by what I was trying to say is the problem as I see it. I hope you could have read between the words and tried to look at the big picture rather than stuck to some micro words written in some statement. I'm not playing any word game here so please dont take me wrong and dont consider rich or one who is making all the efforts and earning money is contributed to all the problems in this world. Its all of us together responsible until extinction. If you interpreted it otherway, I'm fine with that.
I believe the evolution of a person to a state (Eve-teasing at the local chowk/ nukkad) that you have mentioned here depends on his surroundings and not his own actions (buddy, please dont argue on this, this is scientifically proved with many mice and human subjects too). And we are talking about the very surroundings and the system that creates it.

Will be glad to continue discussing this and know why are you defending that so called 'rich' entity, let mods confirm that we can and we shall.

In fact basic economics says the more we earn, the more we spend or invest. which in any case trickles back to the overall economy. so the rich are actually not contributing to poverty but reducing its impact by various way of generating employment. if those so called have nots want to work and not try to loot women drivers.

Tell me more about the "various" ways you are talking about, will be a good learning for me. At least, I didnt find that in wiki or any research paper so far

Each one of us is responsible for our 'present' due to our actions earlier in this life. Despite having faced hurdles of reservation at every step of our academics,

you and I were simply lucky to get better surrounding and get some eduction and so we are discussing this point. Can we compare ourselves with Anil or Mukesh Ambani on your theory of "responsible for our present due to our actions earlier in this life"?

we had the guts and gumption to work hard and get educated. while we were working hard, what were these 'have nots' doing? Eveteasing at the local chowk/ nukkad?

their gut is stronger than ours, but they are using it for different purpose. Again, not saying a rich is responsible for that its just the system and people in the system including us

If they had invested some efforts and worked hard they could have also been in a decent position. I have seen poorer people than these work hard and smart at getting out of the rut they were in. .

Agree, there are so many examples out there.
So, if some can do why others cant?

They dont go around looting lone women drivers to earn their daily roti. There is no justification for such behaviour

due empathy for this specific instance, we need better rules to deal with this and we are again back to the same point, we are at mercy of this same system that we are trying to discuss here.

And no. I, you or the rich guy in a German car did not create this situation for them. They have dug the hole for themselves. If they cannot help themselves despite the reservations, categories and everything else, I dont know what else will. In fact, subsidies or free housing dont help any poor person. they just help the opportunists. The working class have subsidised the freebies more than enough already.

This is again just your perspective, many in this world dont share it. I hope I have not insulted any rich folks here, but if anyone thinks that way, I too keep "ukhad lo" attitude in one corner, one needs versatility.
Overall, I started this discussion by looking at a little bigger picture and never wanted point finger to someone whom I cant even see. However, if you want to be so much self critical about the word 'rich' and yourself, it doesnt make a big difference to the world, there are many who shares the same view as yours and many as that of mine, the time may tell where the majority is and what direction we are heading.

Mods,
if you agree with me on OT, please move this to appropriate thread so we can discuss this in more details, I would like to stop here on making any further arguments on this (unless mods think this is not OT).

[bblost]

Note from Support Team:

Its a good debate.
But please move on.

Thanks,
Support Team

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by Ketan

These statments are proven with scientific data to support them, you may have different logic behind not believing them is a good thing, you are about to invent and prove a new theory to the world.

I dont disagree with the wiki extract. I just said we know it one way or the other.

Originally Posted by Ketan

Its all of us together responsible until extinction. If you interpreted it otherway, I'm fine with that.

No. This point I dont agree. Each person is responsible for building their own future. If they chose to do or avoid doing something, we cannot be responsible. Each person is responsible for themselves here.
This I think is the main reason for such crimes, victimisation attitude.
"I will sit at home and do nothing for x months. then suddenly I will wake up and see that my neighbour has 2 cars. I assume he would be just lucky (inherited money or got onsite project) or corrupt (god knows what he does) or swindled someone. why dont I get 2 cars? I am the victim here."
In the above example, it is very easy to pass blame to the guy who is earning here. but why cant it be accepted as our own shortcoming and working on it? Its better to bring us up to the level of the rich guy than bring him down to our poverty level. Aim and achieve. Live and let live bro.

Originally Posted by Ketan

Will be glad to continue discussing this and know why are you defending that so called 'rich' entity, let mods confirm that we can and we shall.

I am not defending the 'rich'. I am not even in that category. I just want to know why you are holding them responsible for creating or contributing to poverty.
please note I am not talking about politicians or illgotten money. only about people who have made money through working on their ideas/ hard work.

Originally Posted by Ketan

Tell me more about the "various" ways you are talking about, will be a good learning for me. At least, I didnt find that in wiki or any research paper so far

ok, I will name a couple. A rich person employs people either at his workplace or home. Or he could buy certain products which require installation, say electrical/ plumbing services or wallpaper installation or carpentry work. Any and all of these generate employment because he is spending money. Doesnt require a research paper for that

Originally Posted by Ketan

you and I were siply lucky to get better sourrounding and get some eduction and so we are discussing this point. Can we compare ourselves with Anil or Mukesh Ambani on your theory of "responsible for our present due to our actions earlier in this life"?

I was rejected for admission in my chosen stream in higher secondary school though I had 80% marks. fellow students who had 40% marks got admission to my first choice stream/ same university. Would you call that luck?
Despite that I joined a second choice stream and worked hard to get where I am. The 40% guys took multiple number of years to clear even 12th std. given the opportunity, I am sure I would have performed better than them. So despite having better luck, did they work hard and make anything out of it? Good fortune has a part to play but its not the whole. People have to act, do something.
Ambani examples are freak examples, more by birth/ inheritance. but even they have built further on their luck.

Originally Posted by Ketan

Mods,
if you agree with me on OT, plesae move this to appropriate thread so we can discuss this in more details, I would like to stop here on making any further arguments on this (unless mods think this is not OT).

This one thing I agree with. This sub discussion can be moved to another thread, perhaps the recession one or something similar.

Last but not the least. @Sugeeta, despite our difference of opinion on certain topics we jointly deplore such acts of cowardice and opportunism.

[Sugeeta]

Was a witness to a similar incident on Mathura Road at 11.30 am on Wednesday, 11th September, 2013. There was some commotion near the CRRI Intersection signal and by the time I came parallel to the target car, could only see the hapless owner trying to chase the miscreants, only in vain.

White Chevy Cruze owner, registration no. DL ----- 0009. In case you are interested in pursuing the matter with the cops, you can reach out to me. It seems very peculiar that these thieves have been duping the common man on the same stretch of road for the last 3 years without the cops being able to do anything about it. These thieves seem to be blessed.

There have been three more theft attempts on the same stretch involving my car. Colleagues have also been victims to the same style of thefts in broad daylight.

[Deeps]

Originally Posted by Sugeeta

Was a witness to a similar incident on Mathura Road at 11.30 am on Wednesday, 11th September, 2013. There was some commotion near the CRRI Intersection signal and by the time I came parallel to the target car, could only see the hapless owner trying to chase the miscreants, only in vain.

White Chevy Cruze owner, registration no. DL ----- 0009. In case you are interested in pursuing the matter with the cops, you can reach out to me. It seems very peculiar that these thieves have been duping the common man on the same stretch of road for the last 3 years without the cops being able to do anything about it. These thieves seem to be blessed.

There have been three more theft attempts on the same stretch involving my car. Colleagues have also been victims to the same style of thefts in broad daylight.

Wow. Simply shocking that you've been targetted again multiple times. Have you not considered changing your route - via MB road for example?

I was travelling on that stretch from Sarita Vihar to Ashram yesterday evening among the crazy and (supposedly) religious hooligans who had created traffic snarls. Your post had instilled quite a bit of paranoia in my mind. Kept myself fully alert for any suspicious movement around my car in the 70 mins that it took to cross those few kms.