[hvkumar]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

a. Honestly, again, for a DBHPian, we expect you to talk sense, question assumptions, come out with reasoning than use dismissive labels. I will of course not get sidetracked into listing my "non armchair" long distance motorcycling/driving resume, of which you are fully aware. The question is about critically breaking it down - and I invite you to challenge the assumptions I took.
b. As for your own example - let me ask you only TWO questions -
> Would you have been able to manage the same speed over 3000km with a spare driver?
> over 6000km? Without any additional fatigue setting in? Without your attempt for glory posing risks for others?

Well, I have done that much & more solo, not once but over several years, it is just that I do not talk about it.

and btw, even you would agree NH2 (atleast Delhi-Kanpur) is much less congested than say the Surat section of NH8? no? Can we just multiply DEL-CCU X4?

I think you are analysing without having the correct facts in hand. Just to give you an example, the duo's speed on the Bombay-Delhi sector was 4.5 hours slower than my best on the same sector. And as most who know me well know, I am not a speed demon at all, even the cars I drive are not in that speed class.

1. Competition or the next record seekers - I am not questioning their abilities here - this duo have proven themselves by their safe completion. Surely others may do even better. The point under debate is whether the activity is safe and worth endorsing on TeamBHP or not.

I find far more unsafer things written about in team-bhp, why single this out? So many doing cross-country runs, long drive expeditions, overnight drives, Volvo buses driving at break-neck pace through Indian highways, and so on - they are all written about in online forums like team-bhp. The first time I got to know about people driving at 170-200 kmph was through team-bhp posts. Did that "influence" me to drive faster than I do? NO.

Publishing a thread does not mean "endorsing", such threads invite discussions, analyses like these which enable the readers to form a balanced and informed view so that they can make their own assessments as to what is safe, irrational or outright dangerous. Demanding that they be taken off or censored is to take a "Didi" attitude to wanting to listen to only those things that sound good to some. The best part of democracy is the debate and not the propaganda.

I can also publish their top speed info here, but I believe that it will only create further misunderstanding on the other aspects of their drive - like the meticulous planning or the other protocols they followed that made them drive so consistently to the time targets. All I would like to say is that in 5 of 6 time-based sectors they did, they clocked average speeds of below 100 kmph.

Does one person's doing it make it a safe record to be emulated by all and sundry? Like PW highlighted - even the best can have an off day. And Venu's absence is the stark proof of that. Even on his bunburner thread - I was the one of a handful of people calling him out for continuing to ride on inspite of an insect-hit eye. Six months later we were reading his condolence thread.

No one is writing in this thread to encourage or exhort others to do the same thing. No one is throwing the gauntlet here challenging any other to beat the record. The thread seeks to state out a fact which will be in the Limca Book of Records when its next edition hits the stands sometime next 2 months. No one asks for the LBR to be banned just because it records so many such achievements.

Of so many burners, Vinu SV was an unfortunate exception in recent times.

2. Newspaper coverage and how such drives may be percieved by media/others - Let's not waste a second talking about such records getting published in newspapers. I mean, great it got splashed - but we are TeamBHP - our commitment to quality is different, right? Newspapers have no emotional investment - for them its more masala, more readership.

I do not think you should belittle other forms of communication this way. Newspapers like Eenadu reach more people, influence millions of people, much more than any online forum does. And online forums are no different in having "masala" or those desiring more "readership".

Can we instead ask the friends of Vinu SV, how they feel now, for encouraging him to ever higher glory? How would we feel if some BHPian we know well ended up dying or worse, killing someone else in the process?

I am also one of those who knew Vinu SV reasonably well, he looked up to me like an elder brother. I have also advocated caution before his burner drives, but each person keeps his own counsel and as I said before, Vinu chewed off more than what he could swallow. Killing someone - those risks are there everytime you drive your car out on the road.

3. Bom - Del timing - You (or doc arn) for that matter are someone who operates on clockwork precision and time your drives very well. But again the same question. Can you or you + 1 relieving driver manage the same average over the whole 6000km? As safely as you would have done the first 1500km?

The answer from my side to that is: after nearly 3 decades of driving - you see, I am an old man - is YES. It all depends on how you plan your drive, sleeping cycles, food, etc. I am sure you read daily in this forum of so many doing things which were unimaginable a few years ago - like, saying, driving Bombay-Bangalore the same day. If you analyse the way Indian highway driving & quality of Indian vehicles have evolved over the last many years, maybe you will agree with me on that.

[phamilyman]

ah well, so ne'er the twain shall meet on this topic. So be it

[F150]

Here is my take.

1. Trips like these are planned months ahead, with detailed routes and re-fueling stops and of course taking the drivers ability in to consideration. Let us not jump the gun saying it is un-safe.

2. Of all the people commenting on this thread, how many have driven on the GQ ? At least Bangalore to Delhi ?

3.Let us not become saints/prophets all of a sudden, giving sermons about breaking speed limits.Folks, let us be honest to ourselves, how many times have you not broken speed limits or traffic rules.

4.Few members have posted that they cant drive on the road, thinking someone will overtake them at a higher speeds or their life is in danger.

Can we control someone who is drunk and driving ?
Can we control kids who parents don't have time to control their kids but instead leave them on the road with high end cars, sometimes even without a license ?

These are all constraints or risks,which are ever present.
Now these two folks cannot be compared to the above can they be ?

5.People should be mature enough to know their capacity or capability, others are not responsible for them. This is like saying SRK/Sallu are spoiling the crowd by doing what they are doing in the movies. One should excercise their own judgement.

So let us take it in the right spirit and acknowledge their achievement.

[khan_sultan]

Having done the GQ drive over 6 days in 2 SUVs with expert drivers & HVK himself, we used to manage just 4-5-6 hours of sleep every day. I know how strenuous it was and the 'need' to reach the designated point by 'xx' hours does impact you and your driving (while you have no control of the traffic situation on the roads).

I still remember the various close calls we had on that GQ drive and how fatigue impacted the participants, especially towards the later half of the 6 day drive. And yes, we were NOT trying to break any speed/time record. We were doing it just for adventure and the thrill of it.

Just read this post from our GQ drive in December 2009
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travel...ml#post1119624

EDIT: @F150, well said. Agree with what you have mentioned.

[Sn1p3r]

Originally Posted by San Phrangmung

People who are passionate about these kind of long and endurence drive would keep on doing it irrispective. If not for this forum i would not have come to know about and see the pictures from this or the past such drives.

I am sure nobody wants anyone hurt, but lets share their journey, not block it.

As long as a person does it of his own free will, without any kind of external pressure its ok. But it would be sick if while running after sponsorship any chap has to go beyond his safest possible limit and in the end lose his precious life.

Can team-bhp help out / pressure the concerned government authority RTA MVI etc to regularise such events for everyones safety?

We are not blaming you for the thread brother, we are just making a counter argument for our readership. Many of us have seen a lot of driving on the local roads and highways, and our road safety stats speak aloud about the safety norms and infrastructure available in case of an emergency. If you read your own lines above, you yourself know that the guys have been lucky (comes from practice or sheer luck).

I have not stated to block e thread rather the message reading the title is unhealthy. 6000km in 79 hours is ok but making it to a record book is akin to promoting the event.

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

While I absolutely do not approve of a road race of this type, I'd congratulate the record holders.

However if one were to ignore the safety aspects, I think one can do far better - especially if one were to get a faster car. Get a 530D, put an endurance tank (120'ish liters), mark out the course with where exactly to stop and where to refuel. I'm pretty sure this can be easily brought down to sub 60 hours with the right car and equipment.

Yes, the whole point is someone else will now try to do it even faster thereafter. The moot point is should it be encouraged or not. TBHP is a respected forum and more than the members there are visitors, we can determine the demographics and say for sure that no one else is being inspired from this record building example.

Originally Posted by hvkumar

Well, I have done that much & more solo, not once but over several years, it is just that I do not talk about it.

Publishing a thread does not mean "endorsing", such threads invite discussions, analyses like these which enable the readers to form a balanced and informed view so that they can make their own assessments as to what is safe, irrational or outright dangerous. Demanding that they be taken off or censored is to take a "Didi" attitude to wanting to listen to only those things that sound good to some. The best part of democracy is the debate and not the propaganda.

The thread seeks to state out a fact which will be in the Limca Book of Records when its next edition hits the stands sometime next 2 months. No one asks for the LBR to be banned just because it records so many such achievements.

Of so many burners, Vinu SV was an unfortunate exception in recent times.

And online forums are no different in having "masala" or those desiring more "readership".

I am also one of those who knew Vinu SV reasonably well, he looked up to me like an elder brother. I have also advocated caution before his burner drives, but each person keeps his own counsel and as I said before, Vinu chewed off more than what he could swallow. Killing someone - those risks are there everytime you drive your car out on the road.

We all have huge respect for your skills and travel and we are also not pointing figures as to why you supported them, maybe it is due to your sharing the experience that bought home these daring drivers to accomplish what they have. However, the fact still remains that you yourself are not endorsing the thread rather adding factual interpretation of how it was done.

It will be highly irresponsible for Limca Book to grant this as a record. Not that it was not done but that it defy's traffic regulations that are prevalent in the country currently. The discussion has been productive and that the tone of the thread has seen a shift. Someone's triple digit break neck speed publishing infuses confidence rather than make the reader abstain from it. There was a thread from our member how he depicted his civic crashed in an instant and how he was in recuperation and felt the trauma many months after the crash. It's one thing to drive pedal to metal on Autobhans (I did them many a times) and driving above limits in India. Some places have ridiculous low speed limit but that's the way it is, we can't change the facts. The same facts make Indian roads the world's deadliest.

I disagree to your statement that TBHP desires readership, of that would have been the case then it would have been a usual open forum. Sensationalize the news is what we don't do here and we all still visit the same forums while media moves on to the next big thing that kaching the ad money for them.

The whole idea is that we do not have Vinu like cases, an erring human will never know how big their optimum bite to chew ratio is. We don't want a precious life to wither away just because it was simple glitch of concentration. The day our traffic is regulated and is behaved, our infrastructure capable to handle emergency, speed limits will ascend.

Till then drive safe, everyone.

P.S. I have taken the part of conversation not to prove a point but to highlight that within the argument there is a self depicting counter argument.

[hvkumar]

Originally Posted by Sn1p3r

I disagree to your statement that TBHP desires readership, of that would have been the case then it would have been a usual open forum. Sensationalize the news is what we don't do here and we all still visit the same forums while media moves on to the next big thing that kaching the ad money for them.

No, no, I did not say team-bhp wants readership, I was referring to those who open threads, many like to be applauded for what they did, and are naturally keen to see as many people read it and compliment them, which is but natural.

Till then drive safe, everyone.

That is the bottom-line. Driving Indian highways is more often than not a dangerous exercise, uncertainties galore, one has to appreciate it thoroughly beforehand and not do anything silly. During long drives, the fatigue factor is very important (and I keep telling this to those who plan long cross-country drives, that Day 3 will be tougher than Day 1, even though it is the same distance that has to be driven - you will find this advice generously splattered in every thread which I have commented upon) and rest cycles have to be respected, although this may vary from person to person (3 - 8 hours). For a BPO man, driving away into the night seems to be the most natural thing to do, but for many driving after dark is a strict no-no.

[lloydofcochin]

This is quite an intriguing discussion and I feel that it is unfair to single out these folks who have achieved this feat.

I'm sure they too dearly value their life(s) as everyone of us do. I don't have any driving experience beyond the highways in the south but I feel that with meticulous planning and flawless execution it is quite possible to complete such a drive without mishaps and let us congratulate them for that.

In the last 1.6 years I have driven about 50k+ on southern highways and I have never had to stomp my brakes to avoid a collision. I do brake early and try to maintain a consistent speed rather than driving at break neck speeds. And with my conservative style of driving most of the times I have managed to get an average of 75-80 kmph including breaks. The quality of the highways have improved a lot and it is not an herculean task any more.

I tell myself - "Expect the unexpected" on our highways and am always prepared to avoid anything coming my way and the rest is left to God

Here is a link where one of our Mods claiming to have done 85 kms in 30 mins (170kmph) flat and I did not see anyone counseling him against breaking speed limits and endangering others on the road. So my question is why these double standards? - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travel...t-cruze-3.html

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by F150

3.Let us not become saints/prophets all of a sudden, giving sermons about breaking speed limits.Folks, let us be honest to ourselves, how many times have you not broken speed limits or traffic rules.

The point is about the ability to combat fatigue after 2000km or 3000 or 5000, WHILE driving at triple digit speeds consistently.

How many here have been the end witness for a bun burner rider? (2500km in 36 hours) I have. The amount of sheer fatigue that can overwhelm even some really fit people is NOT to be underestimated.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by Sn1p3r

...many more will attempt.

Yes - many more, who are untrained, unqualified and without adequate precautions.

Originally Posted by phamilyman

...we expect you to talk sense...
...my "non armchair" long distance motorcycling/driving resume, of which you are fully aware.

Yes - and not crash our cars before shooting from the mouth. Neither HVK nor I have done that in 25-30 years of driving, but I have no such guarantee about you or others.

I invite you to challenge the assumptions I took.

Will take too long, and I have no intention of battling it out on the keyboard. Just one example - 3 min average at EACH tollgate is nonsense. Most highway tolls take <1min to cross.

TWO questions -
> Would you have been able to manage the same speed over 3000km with a spare driver?

Depends on the spare driver's ability & experience. With HVK, I'd consider it. With you, I wouldn't risk it.

> over 6000km? Without any additional fatigue setting in? Without your attempt for glory posing risks for others?

When I drive, my family is always in the car. A heightened risk factor for them is far more critical for me than an increased risk to other road users. My driving is adapted to the safety of the car's other occupants first, and such a driving style automatically translates to safety for other road users. 6 km or 6000km, if I am fatigued, I don't drive. Period.

...you would agree NH2 (atleast Delhi-Kanpur) is much less congested than say the Surat section of NH8? no? Can we just multiply DEL-CCU X4?

You haven't been beyond Kanpur, which is just a third of the full distance from DEL to CCU.

The point under debate is whether the activity is safe and worth endorsing on TeamBHP or not.

If mods consider the activity to be unsafe, this thread would be pulled out of public view. Team-BHP moderators and admin do not necessarily endorse any and all opinion propagated by its members, but going by your viewpoint, this forum would stop talking about road rallies because they supposedly endanger bystanders, and all OTR activities because they hurt nature in some way.

Does one person's doing it make it a safe record to be emulated by all and sundry?

All & sundry are not expected or invited to jump on to the bandwagon of skilled drivers. When did anyone say so?

...at what distance do you believe that it turns from safe fast long distance driving to risky? Unlike a DEL-CCU drive, in my mind I have no doubt that *this* record falls in the very risky category.

Originally Posted by phamilyman

The point is about the ability to combat fatigue after 2000km or 3000 or 5000, WHILE driving at triple digit speeds consistently.
The amount of sheer fatigue that can overwhelm even some really fit people is NOT to be underestimated.

Phamilyman, some people can stay awake at the wheel, some cannot. If you know which category you fit into, you wouldn't be asking/discussing this. AFAIK, for most drivers, a 12-hour stint at the wheel is bad enough - not for me. If I have an unique ability to keep awake for 48 hours at a stretch without getting tired, do you have a problem with it? I am sorry, but I cannot discuss my genetic constitution here... I'm out of this discussion.

[DieselLover]

Originally Posted by lloydofcochin

This is quite an intriguing discussion and I feel that it is unfair to single out these folks who have achieved this feat.

I'm sure they too dearly value their life(s) as everyone of us do. I don't have any driving experience beyond the highways in the south but I feel that with meticulous planning and flawless execution it is quite possible to complete such a drive without mishaps and let us congratulate them for that.

In the last 1.6 years I have driven about 50k+ on southern highways and I have never had to stomp my brakes to avoid a collision. I do brake early and try to maintain a consistent speed rather than driving at break neck speeds. And with my conservative style of driving most of the times I have managed to get an average of 75-80 kmph including breaks. The quality of the highways have improved a lot and it is not an herculean task any more.

I tell myself - "Expect the unexpected" on our highways and am always prepared to avoid anything coming my way and the rest is left to God

Here is a link where one of our Mods claiming to have done 85 kms in 30 mins (170kmph) flat and I did not see anyone counseling him against breaking speed limits and endangering others on the road. So my question is why these double standards? - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travel...t-cruze-3.html

Very well said. There are numerous travelogues and ownership threads in this forum where people claiming to have done very high speeds in all sorts of cars and suv's. If they are all safe to other road users then so is these two guys. We encounter countless maniacs and idiots on the road who pose far greater danger than two well prepared guys attempting a record.

[lejhoom]

Congratulations to the duo for the achievement.

I don't think all achievements you read about anywhere are to be emulated by everyone, just for the heck of it.

I was interested in the details of this feat: the planning and details and was keenly expecting more information. Looks like the thread is going somewhere else.

Surprised at this "kolaveri" going on this thread when you don't see anyone venting his spleen at this thread: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...-traveled.html.

I strongly suspect the brand of the car and its photos in the beginning must have been the reason for this veering of track which resulted in this discussion.

Hope to read the elaborate details of the trip here in this thread. Can we please have it?

[hvkumar]

Originally Posted by lejhoom

Hope to read the elaborate details of the trip here in this thread. Can we please have it?

Since neither of the duo is a member here (they are still in a long waiting list), I will write in with more details of the drive soon.

[hvkumar]

This is not really , it has lots of interesting learning. Has strong parallels to understanding how a drive like this was accomplished:

Rabbit & Turtle Story (Amazing version) - YouTube

[Ravveendrra]

I do not have as many miles to my credit as Chief (HVK) and Shamindra sir, but I have been doing long-distance drives (and rides) since the 1980s and have clocked over 1,00,000 km on Indian Highways and I agree with them totally.

It might help to remember that Indian roads (including highways, expressways et al) are inherently dangerous. So one has to be prepared a 200%. The alternative is to stay at home.

First step is choosing the right vehicle and preparing it extensively, next is to have the driver(s) prepared, rested, mentally alert. Extensive trip planning saves not just minutes but hours each day.

OT: It helps to have, or be able to cook up a, 'Plan B'. This was what enabled three drivers to do Shillong (Meghalaya) to Hyderabad (AP) with one halt (Bhubaneshwar).

Important too is maintaining discipline by all drivers on board. This means that they will rest and sleep as much as possible when another is driving, so that they can take the wheel at short notice. It also means that each one will stop driving the moment he feels fatigued or sleepy.

It definitely helps to remember that higher moving average is not about higher top speeds but consistent speeds with smooth driving.

Congratulations to AVR Prabhakar & Bhaskar Mandapaka.

[hvkumar]

Originally Posted by Ravveendrra

It might help to remember that Indian roads (including highways, expressways et al) are inherently dangerous. So one has to be prepared a 200%. The alternative is to stay at home.

You almost plucked the words out of my mouth!
Utmost concentration is the key to success in long drives.
In my case, I don't even play music - many may even find that funny - simply I find it better to drive without it.
Preparation - they started long ago, they researched well, appreciated driving conditions in each sector & took it on that basis.

Important too is maintaining discipline by all drivers on board. This means that they will rest and sleep as much as possible when another is driving, so that they can take the wheel at short notice. It also means that each one will stop driving the moment he feels fatigued or sleepy.

Exactly what they did. Prabhakar drove, Bhaskar slept, and vice versa. They got used to sleeping in the car, although Prabhakar did have problems sleeping well. Whenever I talked to them, they sounded fresh & relaxed. They also had a third driver in mind for the trip, but the third man could not make it in the last moment.

It definitely helps to remember that higher moving average is not about higher top speeds but consistent speeds with smooth driving.

Precisely! One has to have the temperament of the long-distance marathon runner, not a 100 mtr sprinter. Yes, they did some very good top speeds, but they were all momentary, you cannot do that consistently on any highway in India unless you are a nut case, which neither was. In fact, I was upset that they were too slow on some sectors where I knew they could have done much better!