[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by ::CMS::

I feel you are lucky that the other two were not adamant and helped you by absorbing their loss.

Sorry I once again fail to understand the word "adamant" here. The OP is clearly not entitled to pay them even a penny regardless of whose mistake the accident was. The legal way to go here is via the 3rd party insurance ( which is a herculean task but so be it). So where is the question of being adamant here. Does it mean they didn't threaten him with harm to his life/family/property in which case it would amount to a serious criminal case against them.

[StepUP!]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Ohh My Goodness! According to the numerous posts;
========In short, it was a chain reaction. As a fair policy you owned the damage.

Yea of course I have to pay to Dzire guy. I was questioning the logic there.

I am happy at least few BHPians here feel asking for NCB is wrong.

We should have a quiz on this NCB to get a better picture. I would also like to know Mods' opinion on this.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by ::CMS::

I feel you are lucky that the other two were not adamant and helped you by absorbing their loss.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Sorry I once again fail to understand the word "adamant" here. The OP is clearly not entitled to pay them even a penny regardless of whose mistake the accident was. The legal way to go here is via the 3rd party insurance ( which is a herculean task but so be it). So where is the question of being adamant here.

"I feel you are lucky that the other two were not adamant (to proceed legally against you) and helped you by absorbing their loss."

----------

Edit:

Interesting post I came across. Interesting how perceptions change. This post has you advocating paying heavy fines/compensation and here you are so furious on the other guys just coz they asked your insurance co to foot the bill.

Originally Posted by StepUP!

....
There are lot of factors which cause utter disregard towards others on road and make people so selfish and inhuman. And merely increasing fines from Rs 100 to Rs 500 won't help as people will always go scot free by bribing police. Indian people won't follow rules till they are penalized heavily. If we sense there is a potential financial loss in doing so, we retreat. Hence what I can think of is

1. If a vehicle has jumped a signal and caused the accident ahead no vehicle/personal damage will be covered from his vehicle's insurer company and health insurance company. He will have no say if police case is lodged by the other party. he will be prosecuted like a criminal.
2. If a person is driving in a wrong lane, and person going in the right direction bangs into him, the same rule applies. No compensation from insurer and the accident causing vehicle has to pay the other party as well heavily.
3. If the run continues say more than thrice; owner has to pay the road tax again. Till then his vehicle remains confiscated.
4. In addition to monetary fine; police should make the offenders wait till eternity so that their "precious" time is screwed.

I know it's difficult to implement in India particularly to prove who has jumped the signal or driven in a wrong lane but; CCTV and mobile camera can help a lot in this regard.

Originally Posted by StepUP!

...
Both of them were insane like why I should waste my insurance, You have to fix it using your insurance. They had all kinds of arguments like we never caused any accidents, why we should claim the insurance etc.

Anyway, good that you accepted your mistake and made an effort to pacify/pay up to the other guys.

Drive Safe!

[Trojan]

Well, we have had a very long discussion.

Step-up, you did the right thing by accepting your fault.
Beyond that I think rest is purely how you negotiated with the Alto guy or the Dzire guy.

And people, let us all be honest, all of us would try to negotiate in case we end up doing something like this.

If this happened with me, I would 'love' to get everything compensated by the person who caused it. But then, that is theory, in a country with a weak judicial system and conscience which is relative to the influence you carry, only your negotiation is going to work, think about this, he 'bribed' the cops who thought it was customary as they 'Alto' 'Dzire' public didn't file an FIR and somehow they wanted credit for it

Secondly, Step Up you are lucky that no one got hurt and you as well didn't get hurt (and I mean not by accident)

And I don't know if this 'is' the actual process, but why would the cops impound and confiscate a car unless the court gives out the verdict; this wasn't any serious crime which requires evidence to be made available at all times for the cops.

There ain't going to be a spot panchnama done for this incident, not possible as you guys drove to the police station - who funnily though posted just 200mtrs away had to be 'called' to make them aware of the situation.
I don't think this would be the case, can someone throw some light.



Cheers!

Trojan

[IshaanIan]

Glad to here everyone was fine and things seem to have been resolved swiftly and relatively amicably.

Coming to the discussion, I have no qualms with the way things were resolved but while it is good that you accepted your mistake, it is wrong for you to feel like you have been graceful by doing so. Let us not compare ourselves to white clothed thugs. Might have been quite a pain to deal with all of this just because you got distracted by a billboard, however you ought to bear the brunt of the inconvenience without complaining; please don't go calling people fools or morons and please don't think you're doing the world a favour by paying for the D-Zire's damage. It is in NO WAY the Alto guy's fault that he hit the D-Zire.

In India, accepting one's mistake in a traffic collision is a rare occurrence, but we mustn't just stop there. We shouldn't call others names for causing a ruckus or feel holy because we have done what we needed to do (bear the costs of D-Zire's damage). We must all learn how to feel and also display our sorriness.

Cheers!

[StepUP!]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

"I feel you are lucky that the other two were not adamant (to proceed legally against you) and helped you by absorbing their loss."

----------

Edit:

Interesting post I came across. Interesting how perceptions change. This post has you advocating paying heavy fines/compensation and here you are so furious on the other guys just coz they asked your insurance co to foot the bill.






Anyway, good that you accepted your mistake and made an effort to pacify/pay up to the other guys.

Drive Safe!

My goodness! You conveniently highlighted the sentence without giving context. Please read again... I had mentioned that for traffic offenders who drive in wrong Lane and jump signals.
In my case I didn't do anything of that sort. The whole anger is not for I had to pay... It is for NCB, lie, abusing, pressurizing unnecessarily etc.

I feel it's wrong to call a mistake as a crime and make to accept the owner whatever is being asked for. It should be always fair to both.

[vinit.merchant]

There have been numerous speculations on what was right and what was wrong here. I would not add any more to that distinction.

Good you learned the few things, albeit the hard way and good you compensated the other guys. According to me, the NCB should also have been covered.

You were lucky on two fronts
1. None of the cars was on "Only Third Party" cover. My 2002 GTX is only on 3rd Party. Had it been only on Third Party, I wonder whether the Party at fault would compensate (or would someone say "why should the party at fault pay just because I have not taken comprehensive insurance?).
2. Have seen a rise in the number notorious drivers in Pune lately. I mean the one's who are more interested in hitting out at the other, without even listening. You know those types. These guys would hit the other even when the faults is theirs. Good that neither the Alto or DZire guys were of this breed.

[Kumar R]

Claiming third party insurance is practically impossible in India unless the claimant personally knows police, the opposite number's insurance company and the RTO. Had the owner of either the Alto or the Dzire opted for this, all of you would have been deprived of your cars and wasted a lot of time in an unpleasant series of court/RTO/police meetings/summons and maybe even been the subject of harassment by those officials.

There are 3-4 different provisions of criminal law that might be directly applicable in this particular case that StepUp narrated and nothing stops a complainant from making a complaint under some / all of those. While these process are as as lethargic as any, having a good lawyer can speed those up significantly. The accused would have to devote a considerable amount of time and money on defending these charges. Also, more important than the fine (whether it is 500 or 5000) is the stigma of a conviction. In addition nothing stops the affected parties from filing a civil suit for damages and costs. Once again time and money (for a civil suit that drags over 5 years you might end up paying the cost of an alto in that time).

The point I'm making is that the affected drivers / owners could have given you a really hard time if they were prepared to expend some money and suffer the loss of their cars.

Claiming insurance from your own insurance provider is the next best solution but NCB is a very real loss that the claimant suffers. If you've agreed to this form of settlement it is only right (though not legally obligatory) to offset the NCB loss also which, in the end, will pinch the pocket of the affected just as much as the cost of a dent. For new and expensive cars the NCB loss can be substantial I imagine (judging from the premium paid). If you can understand and appreciate your responsibility to make good their cars, I don't see why the NCB is such an issue. There are also some intangible losses the Alto/Dzire owners face by claiming under their own policies -- such as negative profiling for future policies, entry into the permanent service record of the vehicle and loss of 'factory condition' for some parts which might make a difference in case of a resale; once again the owners could have brought up that stuff also.

Anyway, thank god it was just a damage to property. From the narration it seems that had there been a 2-wheeler or pedestrian involved the outcome would have been a lot worse.

[ani_meher]

StepUp, I will take your side for a change. I remember reading on team bhp itself, that someone had injured a person in an accident, paid up his medical expenses, and after some week or month, he got a summons for an accident claim!

Do ask any lawyer friend of yours whether you are well covered based on this, and whether there is any time limit of putting up police case in case of Hit and run accidents. Make sure your loss is limited to what you have already paid till now.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by StepUP!

Yea of course I have to pay to Dzire guy. I was questioning the logic there.

I am happy at least few BHPians here feel asking for NCB is wrong.

We should have a quiz on this NCB to get a better picture. I would also like to know Mods' opinion on this.

Welcome to Team BHP @StepUP. A rocky start, but I can see you have taken it in your stride without getting personal regarding some of the replies you got out here. One would think the Dzire's & Alto's friends were part of the thread discussion members

Jokes apart, glad to see you accepted your fault. It was 100% yours and only your fault. I am quite aware of the the way people drive on the Wakad highway, in a bumper-to-bumper style. Possibly if you had been going any faster, the number of cars being rear-ended would have been more than 2! I do hope your co-passenger also got his due as you did (monetary-wise).

I would agree with @Hayek that you were clearly more decent than the average Indian in agreeing to pay the deductible amount. And yes, people will be people - we'll try to squeeze the maximum buck out of the other person when he's paying but also try to squeeze out of the easiest way when we are to pay. I hope you end up a wiser and better driver, going ahead.

As for NCB understanding @Hayek's and @drmohitg have made the point quite clear for anyone who needs to get this aspect cleared.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Where is it written in the law that one has to pay up the difference and NCB and etc etc. If the other driver is not keen on taking a claim under his insurance then he is free to deal with my insurance company.

Where is it also written that OP has to pay them the difference of what the insurance company covers for repairing their cars ? As per what you say, the Alto/Dzire guys should use their insurance to get their cars repaired and shell out what the insurance does not cover. Or deal with OP's insurance company, which everyone agrees is not an easy task in India. So by that logic, the OP need not have paid anything at all. And depending on the kind of guy that bangs into your car, it is perfectly possible that he leaves without paying a penny - in TN, that would be usually white Scorpios/Fortuners with any political party's flag on it.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

In no circumstances am I going to pay for his NCB loss etc even if its my mistake. I pay a huge premium to the insurance company to cover me up for such mistakes.

If you look at the insurance premium breakup, bulk of what you pay is for making good any damages to your car. The 3rd party part is much lesser. So, the huge premium you pay is to ensure your costly car gets repaired. The 3rd party pay-out is anyway limited and does not cover any costly mistake that you might make - eg. banging into and damaging a hi-end car. So if a puny Alto T-bones a Merc/BMW, the max that would be covered by the 3rd party part of the Alto's insurance would 1lakh (IIRC), while that amount would be peanuts compared to what it would take to bring the Merc back to shape.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

And what is this thing going on about the other drivers being very reasonable in not taking this up further. They cant claim for any damage other than seek the OP's third party insurance even if they go via the FIR route.

Yes, and while we can say that "OP will pay a measly fine and get off", it is not as simple. Check Kumar R's post a few posts ago where he has given enough detail. Understand he is a lawyer, so I expect he has the details right.

[speedsatya]

Originally Posted by StepUP!

Hi All

While I was truing to tell them, we all have insurances, you claim your car's insurance towards damages and I will pay the part which you have to pay through your pocket. Both of them were insane like why I should waste my insurance, You have to fix it using your insurance. They had all kinds of arguments like we never caused any accidents, why we should claim the insurance etc. Alto guy started saying "Lets call Police". I was trying to convince him calling Police won't help and they will confiscate our cars and I am ready to pay for damages.

[/list]

Dont understand your logic here . First of all you do a mistake and damage others vehicles ! On top of that , you expect people to be polite with you . Both the car owners were right in asking you to use your vehicle insurance to sort out everything . Why should they use their insurance when its not their fault at all !!

You were just lucky to get away with all this !

Originally Posted by StepUP!

[*]Don't be nice to not so nice people. Give them the treatment they deserve.[*]Always Wear seat belts and never buy a Maruti car! (no offense meant)[*]keep the cool. You can save on lot of things and hassle in future.[*]Never be intimidated by Police or whatsoever if you are not at fault

Point 1 - I havent read what others have posted here , but lemme clear your misunderstanding here . Those 2 car owners were nice with you for having agreed to use their insurance policies . So your point 1 should have been " Be thankful to people who are nice with you , give them the treatment they deserve "

I understand your point of wearing seat belts , but would be great if you can explain the great insight you got from this experience on not buying a MUL car ?


lastly , my experience of 3L + kms in 13 years of driving on India roads has shown me that most cops wouldnt bother you unless you are at fault . So your last point could be , the moment you see cops trying to act tough , you should understand you have goofed up somewhere

[suhaas307]

In Japan, and most other developed countries, if there is a fender-bender, the parties involved step out of their vehicles, exchange business-cards and be on their way. Because people realise that getting into a verbal altercation on the road is probably going to cost them more than what it would to get the car repaired in the first place.

NCB, no NCB, 10%, 15%, 25%.. How does it matter in the larger scheme of things? It's perfectly understandable to get upset for an accident that was not your fault, but that does not justify holding the offending party hostage for time and money. Everyone makes mistakes. And the fact that the OP accepted his mistake itself is a rare thing. I have been rear-ended before, and believe me, none of the people who've rear-ended my car have accepted their mistakes and in fact, they've had the audacity to pin it on me! Personally, it's great to see someone acknowledging his error and in my opinion, that's a step forward in so far as driving-etiquette is concerned.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by speedsatya

would be great if you can explain the great insight you got from this experience on not buying a MUL car ?

I think he says that because he saw engine-oil leaking from the Alto. I can't be sure, but I would think that must have been the coolant leaking from a damaged radiator - radiator being up front usually takes the brunt in frontal hits and pretty common to have coolant leaking out. I doubt engine-oil would normally leak in such a shunt.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Personally, it's great to see someone acknowledging his error and in my opinion, that's a step forward in so far as driving-etiquette is concerned.

That indeed was exemplary behaviour by the OP and kudos to him for owning up. More than the NCB, what must have put off most folks would have been his uncomplimentary comments on the affected parties.

[arunu]

Stepup, by reading your side comments, I get a feeling that you are trying to project yourself as a victim of a road accident rather than the one causing it.

Firstly, the good part.
You did a good (not necessarily the right thing) thing by agreeing to pay up for the difference amounts, but hope you understand that THEY are entitled to get their cars repaired through YOUR 3rd party insurance claim and you are not doing them a favor.

Rather, you should be apologetic and remorseful for damaging 2 cars and ultimately saddening the owners and their families. They may have bought these cars with lot of difficulties,expectations and with great dreams, but because of your negligence, you damaged the cars and saddened them. Everybody has an emotional connection with their cars and something like this will forever leave a scar.
Whatever repairs are done, those cars will carry a damaged car tag throughout their life, for no fault of the owners.
Also this claim will ultimately lead to the car being categorized as accident vehicle and re-sale value will go down considerably.

By reading drmohit and others' similar comments, I understand that claiming 3rd party insurance is a pain, but there MAY be people who would try to take advantage of such pain points and rather pressurize the affected parties to claim their OWN insurance, rather than paying up thru their 3rd party claims.

Finally, boasting about being local and connected does not mean you get away with the mistakes, may be the affected parties also could be well connected and could have lead you to more than just financial troubles.

Very critical lessons learnt - be attentive and never loose sight of the road. Thank your lucky stars and move on.