[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by chinkara

And how does credibility and accountability come in? By magic?
If someone gets 1 lakh a month, they would be corrupt and if they get 3.5 L they would not be?

Ignoring your condescending tone, if you pay peanuts you are only going to get monkeys.

Originally Posted by chinkara

Lawmakers are in public service - they should get a salary that enables them live comfortably - not in luxury. I am not ok being taxed to the gills (and I get what the markets pay for my skills, cannot decide how much money from others I am going to keep for myself) to keep morons in the lap of luxury.

They pay more to metro train drivers here in Melbourne than 90% of the software engineers, a supposedly high skilled job. FYI, they do not decide their own salaries, in Delhi government's case an independent commission did.

Money paid in salaries is not even .1 percent of the money that we loose to corruption and related inefficiencies. Is the concept of dignity of labor too hard to understand? I wish we showed the same intolerance towards corruption and cronies.

Originally Posted by chinkara

If the salary does not suit them, they are free to become i-bankers if they so wish.

And then you will rue the fact that we do not get good educated politicians. If you want IITian and IIM's to join PSU's and government, pay them salaries that they deserve, not peanuts you want to throw at them.

Originally Posted by chinkara

Practically living in NCR I can say that anything around 60 K per month enables a comfortable lifestyle.
1 L per month and you have enough for leisure, savings etc.

Please define a comfortable lifestyle? I wonder how you came with that figure because if you do not own a house in Delhi, you cannot possibly live a lavish life with 1 lakh a month.
My calculation:
20-25k Rent
10k-15k towards your bills (Mobile, electricity, water)
15-20k towards education if you have two kids in a half decent Delhi school
15-20k's Groceries
10k monthly repayment for a car
~2k plus towards car insurance + servicing
4k - Fuel Expenses
5-10k Miscellaneous expenses

How much money does that leave you with at the end of the month?

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by rdhawan15

You may see some improvement over the initial phase, but the plan will eventually fail.

And, I would love to have a clean and clear air to breathe in. But, I feel that we are targeting a wrong source while giving the main culprits a free-run during the period.

I will wait out for the full 15 days before seeing the hard facts related to air quality improvements.

Let it fail first before completely writing it off.

See the entire ruling and it is not just the cars they are targeting. Lesser trucks are entering Delhi nowadays. So much so that the toll collecting agency is not able to meet its target. Pollution will definitely go down if 10-15% percent of trucks are stopped from entering Delhi.

[OneToughRider]

An update from my side, I spent 1.5 hours just from Dhaula Kuan to Udyog Vihar via Kapeshera in the morning today. Took U turn below Rajokri flyover for Dwarka Link road because the highway ahead was all choked. Heavy traffic till Kapeshera as usual blocked traffic till Udyog Vihar Ph 5 which is hardly 2 kms. Mostly even vehicles in Delhi (Odd ones being female drivers, CNG cars and cabs plying in NCR). I guess this will be the same story on all borders from Delhi to Gurgaon, Faridabad or Noida.

A colleague told me about his metro experience which was full of inconvenience. He boarded early at 7.30 a.m and metro yellow line trains were all packed.

[rdhawan15]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Let it fail first before completely writing it off.

See the entire ruling and it is not just the cars they are targeting. Lesser trucks are entering Delhi nowadays. So much so that the toll collecting agency is not able to meet its target. Pollution will definitely go down if 10-15% percent of trucks are stopped from entering Delhi.

That's what I said. Let us wait out the entire test period. Let there be some data to formulate a plan of action.

At the end of the day, everyone wants clean air and water and some space to lead a good, peaceful and happy life.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by mayankk

Its a given that when a certain number of cars are off the road, you'll decongest. To have a problem with lesser traffic, and lower pollution, you'd have to be daft. The issue is regarding alternates. The expectation is to be ABLE to get to where you want in reasonable time and convenience.
By the by, what's your plan for a commute tomorrow? Genuinely curious.

I have been in a carpool for over a year now, so the same way.

There are also Ola shuttle services available now between Gurgaon and Dwarka, so plenty of options.

[ajitstreet]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Isn't congestion also contributing towards pollution? I guess the pollution will be reduced by keeping some cars off the road. It can't remain the same. Don't you think so?

Yes, congestion is also contributing to pollution. But do you think every nook and corner of Delhi is affected by congestion? No. So if the point is to attack congestion, a special congestion tax can be considered for areas which are affected by congestion. For this even-odd policy for whole of Delhi is not required. Second, congestion has many reasons like lack of parking facilities, illegal parking and vending on roadsides etc. So bringing odd-even for whole of Delhi to attack congestion is not a very good idea. Now as far as air pollution is concerned, let's wait for 15 days to see the facts.

[noopster]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

The joker has bought 11 Innova's for his Ministers, to beat the odd-even rule. Now I think Innova is 2.5 litres, somewhat bigger than the 2L limit!! Not good PR!!

I don't think you are even allowed to register a 2L+ diesel engine in Delhi/NCR any more- localites can please confirm.

Originally Posted by SwatiS

http://www.dailypioneer.com/city/gov...n-formula.html

This reminds me of the song - Main karu toh raasleela, tu kare toh character dheela

I think you haven't bothered reading the article. I don't necessarily agree with Kejriwal's politics but in this particular article it clearly says that the Cabinet is planning on carpooling to comply with the new law. And buying Dzire, Ciaz and Nano as opposed to Mercs and big SUVs is actually a refreshing change, IMHO.

I think it is an interesting experiment that someone rightly said should be "allowed to fail". Heaping invective based on incomplete information and pre-conceived notions is going to help nobody. We need innovative solutions to urban problems like congestion, overcrowding and pollution. If someone is trying, let them.

[Turbanator]

Lesser trucks are entering Delhi nowadays. So much so that the toll collecting agency is not able to meet its target. Pollution will definitely go down if 10-15% percent of trucks are stopped from entering Delhi

That's good , any link to this information . I always believe trucks are a major source for pollution , the way they take over the Roads in night , its a high time that someone allow only CNG trucks, so all these Diesel ones are made to transfer goods at borders.

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Ignoring your condescending tone, if you pay peanuts you are only going to get monkeys.

Apologies if you found the tone condescending - it was not towards you definitely.

Coming to the brass tacks - why is 100K enough?

Rent - 20K, Bills 10 K (in my case - mobile + net + electricity + water is around 6-7k, but others may speak more). Children's education - 12 K. EMI - 10 K. Groceries 15 K. Petrol 8K (it is higher in Delhi - distances being larger).

I did not consider EMI a I have a paid up car, but fair enough. All that adds up to 75K. Take buffer and make it 90K. Make it 100 K - 120K? What more do you need?

Friends with 8-9 years' experience in IT industry are living comfortably on 1-1.2L per month. Why should lawmakers get paid more? Especially when in many cases they continue being a teacher / lawyer / businessman?

My thinking is we are going to get monkeys anyway, better pay peanuts than foie gras. It is not as if politicians in the west (who get paid more) are not corrupt.

If you want to stop corruption, limit the discretionary power of monkeys rather than getting highly paid ones.

Originally Posted by noopster

I think it is an interesting experiment that someone rightly said should be "allowed to fail". Heaping invective based on incomplete information and pre-conceived notions is going to help nobody. We need innovative solutions to urban problems like congestion, overcrowding and pollution. If someone is trying, let them.

I agree - worth experimenting. Wish loose ends could have been tried a bit better, but let us at least see.

Only thing- before experimentation the measure and the objective should have been explicitly announced. The hypothesis is that pollution levels would go down to X from Y, and this will be the measure. It will be measured at these 5 locations and thus.

I see a lot of hot air on whether the experiment was successful or not - with political agendas driving the same.

[Manoj2268]

Hell in the Cell! That is what I experienced, travelling by Metro train. This is a moronic decision taken by the 'Dear Leader' without doing any groundwork. The DTC buses are also filled to the capacity. Total Chaos at Kashmere Gate and Rajiv Chowk...

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by ajitstreet

Yes, congestion is also contributing to pollution. But do you think every nook and corner of Delhi is affected by congestion? No. So if the point is to attack congestion, a special congestion tax can be considered for areas which are affected by congestion. For this even-odd policy for whole of Delhi is not required. Second, congestion has many reasons like lack of parking facilities, illegal parking and vending on roadsides etc. So bringing odd-even for whole of Delhi to attack congestion is not a very good idea. Now as far as air pollution is concerned, let's wait for 15 days to see the facts.

What do you propose? Please note that lesser congestion is a biproduct.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

That's good , any link to this information .

Was in news a couple of days back. Search on the net and you will find it.

Originally Posted by chinkara

Coming to the brass tacks - why is 100K enough?

Rent - 20K, Bills 10 K (in my case - mobile + net + electricity + water is around 6-7k, but others may speak more). Children's education - 12 K. EMI - 10 K. Groceries 15 K. Petrol 8K (it is higher in Delhi - distances being larger).

I did not consider EMI a I have a paid up car, but fair enough. All that adds up to 75K. Take buffer and make it 90K. Make it 100 K - 120K? What more do you need?

Friends with 8-9 years' experience in IT industry are living comfortably on 1-1.2L per month. Why should lawmakers get paid more? Especially when in many cases they continue being a teacher / lawyer / businessman?

My thinking is we are going to get monkeys anyway, better pay peanuts than foie gras. It is not as if politicians in the west (who get paid more) are not corrupt.

You mean to say all the MLAs are monkeys? I bet you will find 50% or more such monkeys in your own organisation who do not deserve such salaries? Have you ever voiced you concern there? Why can't our lawmakers get a decent package? I would want to compare all State MLAs and MPs salaries and the cars they are using. Will be great if someone can help me in this regard. Though this would not be topic of discussion in this thread.

Originally Posted by chinkara

If you want to stop corruption, limit the discretionary power of monkeys rather than getting highly paid ones.
I agree - worth experimenting. Wish loose ends could have been tried a bit better, but let us at least see.

Only thing- before experimentation the measure and the objective should have been explicitly announced. The hypothesis is that pollution levels would go down to X from Y, and this will be the measure. It will be measured at these 5 locations and thus.

I see a lot of hot air on whether the experiment was successful or not - with political agendas driving the same.

How do you propose to

1. limit discretionary power of monkeys?
2. tie the loose ends?
3. make explicit announcements?

What if pollution level do not goes down from X to Y but reach half way through?

What political agenda are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Manoj2268

Hell in the Cell! That is what I experienced, travelling by Metro train. This is a moronic decision taken by the 'Dear Leader' without doing any groundwork. The DTC buses are also filled to the capacity. Total Chaos at Kashmere Gate and Rajiv Chowk...

Was it any different before odd-even formula? How do you travel otherwise and from where to where?

[Manoj2268]

Rohini 7 to Noida 63... We have 3 cars(all odd numbers). Elder brother and Dad take one for work, younger brother needs the CNG car as he is in Marketing. I drive the diesel to work everyday.

I dont travel by metro unless I have the evening shift.

I would have to probably work evenings till this blows over..

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

You mean to say all the MLAs are monkeys? I bet you will find 50% or more such monkeys in your own organisation who do not deserve such salaries? Have you ever voiced you concern there? Why can't our lawmakers get a decent package? I would want to compare all State MLAs and MPs salaries and the cars they are using. Will be great if someone can help me in this regard. Though this would not be topic of discussion in this thread.

No one is opposing "decent" package. We are arguing about what is decent. I would argue 3.5 L per month is indecent in its own way for public service. I am not expecting them to make do at 10 K per month.

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

How do you propose to

1. limit discretionary power of monkeys?
   Have clear rules with NO exceptions. Make everything first come first serve, no recommendations, no quotas. Independent techno-economic comparison (with blanked names if necessary) to award contracts. Many things have been done in many places - successfully.
   
   What has never worked (and been proven not to work) is pay more, and expect the same people in the same system to perform better.
   
2. tie the loose ends?
   Like, public transport.
   
3. make explicit announcements?
   This is what we expect to get on the 15th day in terms of pollution levels at these places?
   

What if pollution level do not goes down from X to Y but reach half way through?

Then you debate whether there is sufficient causality or sufficient impact to go ahead with this move. The debate will be on science and economics, not opinion.

What political agenda are you talking about?

Well obvious - this is being driven by a particular political disposition. Their bhakts will cry success, opponents will cry failure. Data will be manipulated / interpreted in myriad ways.




Was it any different before odd-even formula? How do you travel otherwise and from where to where?

My question too. Rajiv Chowk is always hell in the metro. Are you a regular commuter?

[Manoj2268]

If i work weekends and evening shifts(for a month every 3) it is always by metro... Regular shifts(815-415) I use my car.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by chinkara

My question too. Rajiv Chowk is always hell in the metro. Are you a regular commuter?

Shouldn't rajeev chowk NOT have been hell, before trying to push people onto the metro?
Of what consequence is being a regular commuter or otherwise?