[honeybee]

I believe the supreme court has also banned trucks from entering Delhi unless their destination is Delhi.

As the stats prove, this is just a few percentage points off the pollution. Kejriwal shows once again the only thing he is good at is hogging the limelight.

[Masda]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

The govt will cry hoarse about farmers burning stubble, but are not willing to spend a few crores to buy machines to clear harvested machines so that they do not have to burn stubble.

Well, the govt was too busy gifting themselves a 400 percent salary hike. Hard decisions be damned, controlling Delhi's pollution is definitely not the priority for this govt. Odd-even formula or a temporary ban on diesels is just pure hogwash.

[sgiitk]

I always thought the courts may legislate on the level of standards (currently BS-IV in the NCR) and not what vehicles can be used? Something is not right, esp since it reverses the earlier SCI judgement, which was delivered just before the Indica was launched.

[batterylow]

In a strong criticism of the ban on high-end diesel car sales, Tatas-owned luxury carmaker Jaguar Land Rover has said the air sucked in by its latest technology vehicles on Delhi roads is "far dirtier" than what they emit.

JLR is among the automobile companies hit hard by the apex court order in December last year banning registration of diesel SUVs and cars above 2000 cc in the entire National Capital Region till March 31

He said if the aim is to reduce pollution and improve air quality then a comprehensive measure has to be taken, including banning of old cars and controlling other sources of pollution and "not just come up with a single solution, exactly with wrong advice and wrong technology".

Source

The points mentioned by him ring true, as targeting just one source while ignoring the others will not exactly solve the problem!

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by Ironhide

Okay, so diesel pollutes.
Granted...
Why ban diesel cars altogether? Why not raise the prices of diesel? This will lead to
1. purchasing of diesel vehicles only by people who can afford it or need the superior fuel economy of diesel because it makes financial sense.
2. Purchasing by people who can afford it
3. Reduce pollution & give our environment a fighting chance
4. Provide incentive to the industry to invent newer, efficient non polluting means of personal/private transport (bicycles@100kmph anyone? - just a fanciful thought !)

For the rest , we'll have to devise new ways to keep our commute economical & short... Car pooling, public transport, switching to a two wheeler , cycling to work or shifting closer to workplace maybe, all for the good of the environment.

Just my two cents

Cheers!

We as a country have decided on a growth path (needed to sustain our population and strategic position). This growth path has environmental costs. We are going to burn coal this decade for growth. And diesel. Because our economy is geared that way.

My hypothesis is that until pollution becomes absolutely dangerous for all stakeholders ( the elite, the common man, the transporters), no concrete steps will be taken. Only then will the system as a whole be willing to 'pay the price' for cleaner air.


Until then 'the appearance to combat pollution' has to be maintained.

And the judiciary has to maintain 'the appearance of taking concrete action'.

The circumstances have to be right for a result to occur. Numbers like engine specs and emissions are lowest levels on the leverage scale.

Incentives is a much better strategy but also very hard to implement.

Those who understand 'systems thinking' in various fields will understand this better.

[batterylow]

The CSE has struck back at the JLR chief calling his statements irresponsible.

Calling Speth' statement as irresponsible and misleading, Anumita Roy Chowdhury, executive director, CSE, said, "This is a most irresponsible statement to make at a time when dieselisation in India is contributing towards rising particulate and nitrogen oxides and ozone pollution, and also to the risk of growing lung cancer incidence in cities."

The advocacy organisation said that while the companies might have cleaner Euro-VI technology elsewhere in the world, the same are not made available in India. "Do not confuse people with what you sell in India with what you sell in Europe or in united States - Indian standards are 10-15 years behind Europe."

Should the government not take steps to provide better quality diesel before they blame the car makers?

Its like the pot calling the kettle black!

Source

Vinod Agarwal, CEO, VECV talks about the same.

ET Now: If other states choose to follow Delhi's lead and put constraints on diesel vehicles, could that pose a challenge for you in coming quarters?

Vinod Agarwal: The older vehicles are the bigger culprits. Cars featuring newer tech or even Euro IV norms don't cause much emission. So the stress should ideally be on moving to Euro VI.

I think the government should focus more on implementing a policy to scrap older vehicles those over 12-15 years old. That will encourage customers are encouraged to replace older vehicles, which causes much more pollution than older cars.

Source

[srishiva]

The argument about air entering the engine being dirtier than the exhaust has been used for a long time around the world.

I think SIAM and govt need to work together to solve this issue. Its bad that both have short term issues that they want to deal with rather than thinking about longer implications and health of humans. Nothing is being taken to a logical conclusion. And some orders are being passed in the interim

This is not a problem thats not been addressed elsewhere. Why are they trying to re-invent the wheel and waste time? its about what we can do given that solutions exist.

[sgiitk]

@srishiva; I agree, but the problem is that the courts lacking technical skills themselves, often gets swayed by activists, who have their own axe to grind. One prominent 'so called' environmentalist has been after Diesel vehicles since before the launch of the Indica. Why am I using 'so called' she made a lot of hue and cry about pesticides in soft drinks only to get sh1t on her face. Totally false noise. Even now on social media reports claiming pesticide levels in 'percentage' in the drinks, surface periodically. At these levels even a couple of sips will be fatal!!

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by drsingh

Only then will the system as a whole be willing to 'pay the price' for cleaner air.


Until then 'the appearance to combat pollution' has to be maintained.

You have absolutely nailed it!
The reason why everyone appears to do their designated jobs (in an organization or in a country), but no desirable results/outcome.

[honeybee]

No one has been able to prove statistically that banning diesel vehicles (that too new ones) will result in lower emissions, or that newer diesels pollute as much as the older ones. All that the government has done is create something spectacular that will be a hot topic of debate for days to come, while no one notices that this measure does not really serve any purpose.

Various newspapers have already carried stats of the various factors which contribute to the pollution. But the government will obviously not shut down the thermal electricity plants which burn coal, or ban new construction, as it will cripple the government. So the populist measure seems to be ban high end diesel cars. As if a sub 2000cc diesel car is likely to pollute much lesser.

And on the ground, I am sure the public transport and the trucks are never stopped for checking their fitness or pollution certificates, as happens throughout the country. These certifications are only required for the private car owners. I have yet to hear of any report which states a truck was stopped and owner/driver fined for not producing a PuC or for emitting visible black/white smoke.

A few months back, the Times had reported that the vehicles owned by the police in Mumbai have not been checked for PuC for years. So this means the police vehicles are running without valid PuCs for so long.

[sgiitk]

@honeybee; till very recently there was no checking on the quality of fuel sold at the pumps. If the Diesel has 20% Kerosene forget all pollution laws. As for the CSE esp. after the death of their founder, Anil Agarwal, their credibility is very poor. The worst was the hullabaloo on Pesticides in soft drinks. It was ultimately discredited as total bunkum. Even now we see the figures floating around on social media, which claim pesticides in percentages. I told a chap with than percentage of pesticide you will be history even if you took a couple of sips.

As for the diesel issue, remember they went to court just before the Indica was launched seeking ban on Diesel cars, probably prompted by an auto major who did not have a Diesel in their stable. The one good thing they have done is to switch buses to CNG, and created awareness of the environmental issues. On buses I still do not understand why use a truck chassis in a town bus? You need maybe 20% of the bhp!

[anoop.nair]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

The one good thing they have done is to switch buses to CNG, and created awareness of the environmental issues. On buses I still do not understand why use a truck chassis in a town bus? You need maybe 20% of the bhp!

I think that there was & is lobbying in petroleum against alternate fuels. Also I believe things started to change internationally only after Elon Musk ventured. Regarding truck chassis in bus, I think the rationale is 'commonisation' strategy which is in place for business. Not sure though.

As sgiitk already mentioned courts lacking technical skills is one issue.
Quality should be measurable. NOx emission control can be exercised only by stringent norm implementation. Bring EURO 6 or equivalent and ensure cars in India has to comply. State agencies align first and impose on public later. Automatically things will improve.

[ajmat]

Well BMW and Park Hyatt have managed to side step the ban by using Private TN reg cars!!!

[Chetan_Rao]

Won't it be illegal to use these to ferry hotel guests, as there's an obvious commercial gain angle involved?

Also be interesting to know if these guys also get harassed for using out-of-state registered vehicles, or is that privilege reserved for middle-class salary earning folk like us?

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Won't it be illegal to use these to ferry hotel guests, as there's an obvious commercial gain angle involved?

Also be interesting to know if these guys also get harassed for using out-of-state registered vehicles, or is that privilege reserved for middle-class salary earning folk like us?

Delhi being the Capital, there are cars from all over India here. In fact one of very strange situation is that Delhi Residents can get their cars registered in Uttarakhand. As the tax there is minimal, one can save a couple of Lakhs on a Fortuner. Imagine what you will save in case of an S class.