[sunishsamuel]

Originally Posted by hkollar

Per capita Emission (tons/year):
USA - 17.2
Australia: 18.3
UK - 11
China - 7
India - 2

India should not go that path. We will doom ourselves.

If India is the least in the list, why are we having poor quality of air in cities ? For e.g:- I struggle to breath in Bangalore vs New York city. I feel the New York city got better air quality. Is the per capita emission only from vehicles ? If yes, are we right in penalizing private cars alone for the poor quality of air ?

[ambivalent_98]

This is a typical Karnataka government type solution. Don't solve the root cause of the problem give some patchy solution which will fail eventually.
For faster traffic flow , if only they could mend the roads to the best quality , that would solve a lot of problems and smoothen out traffic flow to a great deal. But the government is not doing its job.
I have been to Delhi once or twice and the arterial roads just cannot be compared to Bangalore. So as the old Hindi saying goes "कहाँ राजा भोज कहाँ गंगू तेली "

[pratyush6]

Though I admire something is being tried in Delhi and pretty much all of Bangalore is heading towards the same situation. Why can't we use slightly more brains?

1. Our Metro is hopeless
2. Our buses are hopeless
3. Our roads are hopeless
4. The last mile connectivity is a joke

Why can't the (-whatever you want to call them-) Government of Karnataka do something to speed up the Metro construction? By all means, set a deadline and use the tax money to some good use. Everywhere in India the decision making seems to always be how to minimize the problem rather than solve it.

However, I am open to try it for say a month or so, at-least to see does it really make a difference.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by sunishsamuel

If India is the least in the list, why are we having poor quality of air in cities ? For e.g:- I struggle to breath in Bangalore vs New York city. I feel the New York city got better air quality. Is the per capita emission only from vehicles ? If yes, are we right in penalizing private cars alone for the poor quality of air ?

A 2012 study indicated that about 46% (or about 1.4 million our of 3million) households have a car in NY - http://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

Still there are already suggestions that NY should ban personal cars. - http://www.businessinsider.in/Its-ti...w/47727447.cms


Bangalore on the other hand has over 50 lakh (5 million) vehicles with over 1 miillion cars, and about 116,000 autos!

People forget the density of Indian cities are far higher than anything they witness in west.

While our percapita is less, that's because our cities still don't represent majority population. We are 70% rural, where people don't have much emission.

Our emissions are concentrated in cities. Which is what is causing the problem. Add to this diesel and poor fuel quality menace. Also the open roads, that kick up dust. All these need fixing.


We need to re-imagine our cities. We need dense clusters, not suburbia. We need efficient electric public transport.

Stopping our addiciton to fossil fuel cars is just a beginning. I'd love to see a city that's mostly public transport, electric bikes/bicycles.

Believe me transport time will be same. Bangalore traffic speed is about 10km/hour. That can easily be managed with a bicycle or even a poor e-bike.

[babu.sundaram]

At risk of brick bats..


Bangalore is IT dominated and many IT companies have work from home option. Almost all companies provide chartered buses/cabs. With much higher disposable income than other industries, we find so many young people driving cars alone, in peak traffic hours. It is not scalable to build a Tech Park where a lakh+ people can work and expect 50+% to come in cars!

Agreed, Bangalore's infrastructure is joke. But some areas are very well connected by bus (e.g. Outer Ring Road) and to an extent Electronic City (dont know about others).

If this rule or any rule pushes people to take public / company provided transport or at least to two wheeler, we would avoid a lot of mess!

PS: At least now, people stop buying Innovas/XUV500s for daily commute and switch to smaller vehicles. That way, even if the same people drive evryday by buying two cars, the resultant fuel burn is probably better by running two small cars in this scheme!

[sunishsamuel]

Originally Posted by hkollar

Our emissions are concentrated in cities. Which is what is causing the problem. Add to this diesel and poor fuel quality menace. Also the open roads, that kick up dust. All these need fixing.


We need to re-imagine our cities. We need dense clusters, not suburbia. We need efficient electric public transport.

Stopping our addiciton to fossil fuel cars is just a beginning. I'd love to see a city that's mostly public transport, electric bikes/bicycles.

Believe me transport time will be same. Bangalore traffic speed is about 10km/hour. That can easily be managed with a bicycle or even a poor e-bike.

Thanks for the details. I think we are all agreeing that efficient public transport is the solution. What I do not support is mindless ban and over taxing personal cars. The problem that we have is banning private transport without providing a reasonable alternative - round the clock. If we have efficient transport system and connectivity within and outside city limits, I am pretty sure many would not even think of buying a car. The only reason why I am not happy with the odd/even solution is that it would not resolve the problem long term. Because, you are not providing any good alternative to the public other than sound bites on TV. First build the roads, transport system, then let the buildings grow around it, not the other way round - only to later come up with arguments that private vehicles should be banned, people are getting affluent etc.

Once the better system is in place, I am sure there will be many who would love to cycle in the sparse traffic at Bangalore, the remaining majority using the buses for their commute. Take the case of Singapore, 15% of the public owns private vehicles, where as remaining 85% depends on public transport. Each year government seems to be investing in expanding the capacity, making things better and so on. Hope that day comes to India soon and then start taxing and banning the cars

Originally Posted by babu.sundaram

With much higher disposable income than other industries, we find so many young people driving cars alone, in peak traffic hours. It is not scalable to build a Tech Park where a lakh+ people can work and expect 50+% to come in cars!

Agreed, Bangalore's infrastructure is joke. But some areas are very well connected by bus (e.g. Outer Ring Road) and to an extent Electronic City (dont know about others).

If this rule or any rule pushes people to take public / company provided transport or at least to two wheeler, we would avoid a lot of mess!

As long as the connectivity options cater everyone, such rules are good. Lot of folks login around late morning/noon and leave in the night. They would not find any bus after 10.00pm on the roads you mentioned. The only options are the unauthorized Tempo Travellers and Indica's picking up people. E.g:- I used to log in during different times of the day - depending on the work schedule. So depending on company transport, public transport was not feasible. I could probably use my scooter, but after 10.00pm it gets really unsafe to ride on a two wheeler in certain areas. I cannot generalize and I should not, but there are good number of unsafe/waylaying incidents which people got into after 10.00pm. (My colleague's chain was snatched by an Auto guy at around 10.30pm in front of Ecospace campus, he never came on bike after that, always used his estilo for single person travel)

Again, my intention is not to encourage more personal transport or pollution. I am only hoping that we take decisions which are more practical than knee jerk and the people who support such decisions also consider the ground reality.

Disclaimer:Following figures from Google - Not accurate, approximations only

- Bangalore has a population of about 1.05 crore.
- Out of which 10 Lakhs are IT/ITES employees.
- Out of the above 10 Lakhs not all can afford a 4 wheeler (need to figure exact number; I'd not say more than 25%) - Around 2,50,000 - Do not have access to true figures, so guess work. Keep in mind, only a few get salaries above 15Lakhs per annum which is needed for affording an average house, car and a car parking.
- According to Bangalore mirror, there are more than 50 Lakh vehicles in bangalore (all types included) - Close to 11 Lakhs are cars. Source
- So if you take the IT guys out, the 75% of the cars are owned by non IT guys.

I'd be eager to know the true figures if there is any source that can help.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by sunishsamuel

Thanks for the details. I think we are all agreeing that efficient public transport is the solution. What I do not support is mindless ban and over taxing personal cars.

I agree that mindless bans don't work. It just leads to law breaking and corruption.

But, it does rise awareness with people who own cars - that it is a great privilege - not a right.

However, I disagree on your idea that over taxing cars (not just personal) is bad. High density of India demands that we do not live like US/Australia/Saudi etc. Even China has same problem as us and if you see they too are trying what can appear harsh policy.

I do agree that a gradual phasing out of fossil fuel vehicles in cities (perhaps in 15yrs), will immediately send out a signal to people to move towards Electric or hybrid vehicles immediately, as they won't find resale for fossil vehicles.


We also need a policy to tax bigger personal vehicles heavily. i.e. we should focus on narrow track vehicles for single drivers. Two wheelers, or safe three-four wheel two seaters, that take least road space, less parking space. One car parking needs 7-10 bike parking area.

We rarely pay the rent for the usage of public property - i.e. ROAD. Our road taxes do not cover the actual impact of vehicle on precious commodity - SPACE. A guy travelling in Metro/bus is subsidizing the car owner, in terms of per capita utilization of public space.

So, Tax on the basis of vehicle size, thus charging the actual cost to the nation. Use high taxes charged for personal vehicles to provide better public transport infrastructure for rest.

For example, Renault Twizy/Nissan LandGlider kind of vehicles are far more safer than two wheelers for middle aged/old people, taking just a little more space than bikes. They are non-polluting to boot. Ideal for single riders.

Our problem goes beyond emissions. We need to solve both emission and congestion. We need to think long term right away. Make policy for next 20-50 years.

Towards this - Govt. should build lot more non-polluting power genearation. Solar/Wind/Nuclear, and clean-coal with captive carbon capture, thus reducing the emissions hugely.

This will automatically mean - Electric transport in almost all cities. Methanol/ethanol mixed Petrol for long-distance & aviation. Complete ban of diesel.

Here is a very good article in The wire - http://thewire.in/2016/01/05/forget-...t-model-18580/

[alpha1]

What high and mighty guys (read car owners) forget is that due to their indulgence in solo driving of cars they slow the transport of lakhs of commoners who travel in city buses.

This is the same concept that t-bhpian of Delhi/NCR have not yet understood and neither does the creamy layer which is connected on facebook and twitter.

[guunbuu]

Traffic police and BBMP should charge insane amounts as "parking/congestion tax" from all the software parks/companies/shopping complexes on Outer Ring Road, core Bangalore areas, etc where congestion is maximum - probably something like 2k per slot per day, or maybe more, on weekdays. I am sure the business establishments are going to pass this down to their employees/customers.

At the same time, they should give companies incentive to provide transportation to employees. This I think this will encourage/coerce people to share their rides to keep costs low or use company/public transportation.

My 2 Rs.

[Jaggu]

Bangalore is definitely going the Delhi way for all the wrong reasons; and pollution is more from dust on the road, thanks to poor maintenance of roads, plus uncontrolled construction activity. Just last week one small bit of Inner ring road was done up, and today already some idiot has dumped building material on the road, obstructing traffic and messing up the whole area. Another road inside ST bed is messed up due to heavy vehicle movement, lifting construction material, yesterday it was like driving through a desert with wind blowing. Today they seem to have dumped truck loads of concrete to cover the mess up. But don't think it will last much.

What i have realized is we all are pouncing on vehicles, but am convinced that more serious issue is the dust. Just walk around during day and with one gust of wind you will be covered head to toe in dust, more than what you get even if you stick your head inside a diesel truck exhaust.

It is high time BBMP acted and fined the heck out of these construction idiots who mess up our surroundings and control there activities.

[sun_king]

Originally Posted by alpha1

What high and mighty guys (read car owners) forget is that due to their indulgence in solo driving of cars they slow the transport of lakhs of commoners who travel in city buses.

This is the same concept that t-bhpian of Delhi/NCR have not yet understood and neither does the creamy layer which is connected on facebook and twitter.

I would say this is an incorrect statement, at least for Bangalore. The branding is unfair, the conduct of the "high and mighty" is comparatively better than the road manners of the standard taxicabs, auto-rickshaws and two wheelers. And the city buses actually complicatse the matter with their middle of the road and next to a turn/junction stoppages.

In case anyone is interested here is the Air Quality Index for Bangalore http://aqicn.org/city/india/bangalore/bwssb/ (Not sure how accurate these figures are, Majestic is shown green!)

[hkollar]

The great news for today:

Nitin Gadkari has tweeted this:

"Me & my colleagues @PrakashJavdekar, Anant Geete, @dpradhanbjp has taken a unanimous decision to leap-frog to BS VI directly from 01/04/2020"

Should go long way in pushing bad diesels out. But, need more tougher measures for mega-cities. We are choking.

I have been having a allergic running nose for past week! Mild asthma to boot. Shudder to think how I'd live in Bangalore 5 years from now.

[SILVERWOOD]

Deccan Herald (4th Jan 2016)

Delhi has a robust public transport system compared to Bangalore.Metro, DTC,Blue line,RTV and Metro feeder mini buses & not to forget that Delhi Airport/New Delhi Railway Station,ISBT & Anand Vihar can be reached by metro.

I am not sure how this will work in Bangalore if implemented.

Waseem.....

[VW2010]

I think even Chennai needs this. The dust in the city is never before witnessed by me. Its driving me crazy to get out of Chennai.

The roads are appalling, the pot holes are generating more dust and i am already suffering terrible allergy which has never happened in the last 30 years.

I think its a good idea to make people go back to public transport. I also wish there is a rule for lorries and heavy vehicles.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by hkollar

Here is where we go wrong. Transportation & housing are basic needs. Five star accomodation (gated community) or Cars are not basic needs.

Govt. should strive to provide the basic needs. Good public transport and ensure basic housing availability by planned expansions of city, so cost of basic housing doesn't overshoot.

But, govt. also has an obligation to ensure clean city, clean air, clean water etc. Thus, everyone driving a car is not in the interest of the overall nation. US developed a wrong model, that most US thinkers themselves condemn. We can't ape USA.

Consider what has happened to automobiles. An Indica that cost about 4Lakh rupees in 2000, costs only about 5.5Lakh today. A wagon-R that cost nearly 4Lakh, costs about 5+ Lakhs today.

In these 15 years, salaries have almost tripled. Road building costs have quadrupled!!

If you took wage inflation as a measure, A wagon-R should cost about 15lakhs today, a Swift about 20Lakhs.

If govt. can ensure a huge taxation on car ownership, private ownership would go down. Thus reducing pollution and congestion.

We need to make private cars a luxury items, just like Singapore and so many other high-dense cities have done.

Gated communities, which IMO are a by product of not having sufficient infrastructure, sufficient security and cleanliness. A gated community offers a sense of civilized life which is not possible staying in localities outside the gated walls. As you rightly said, salaries have tripled, so why will a person who now affords a civilized life not want a gated community, or a luxury car? Is he not earning to live well? Or as per the great socialist one must work hard but stay cheek in jowl with the slum dwelling migrant next door?

Comparing with Singapore lets do a whole comparison.

Singapore has a fantastic infrastructure comprising of driverless metro and public buses along with expensive taxis. Bangalore has a new airport with a extortionist elevated flyover, a joke of a metro and sloppy taxi services filled with criminal drivers who don't hesitate to loot or rape.
Singpore housing is subsidized by the government and you basically don't decide where you live or how you live. Bangalore housing is a free for all with pretty much localities springing up using borewell water, diesel genset powerplants and dirt roads, called as a planned layout.
Singapore is a planned city. Residential areas, gardens, recreational areas, health care, schools, work places etc are planned to cater to the community that is living around the locality. Bangalore is planned to help the builder, land shark, politician mafia and one has to commute several kilometers to find a decent school, restaurant, hospital or even commute to work. Along with lax law and order and no public safety what will a normal person do apart from buying his personal car to live safely?