[Stratosphere]

Originally Posted by sdp1975

It's amply obvious that jobs will be lost by banning liqour.
==========
So let's keep the jobs and the deaths . The judiciary and Constititution be damned ! Long live liqour friendly economics.

With all due respect, many industries in India are damaging different aspects of our country. We cannot shut down all or any of them. When an industry damages the environment, it sure as hell pays the price to the government so that the government can make sure that there are no repercussions. That is why the goverment machinery is present.

Thousands of people die every year due to ingesting expired medicines. I don't see any PIL to shut down the pharmaceutical sector? Alcohol is the same. If ingested responsibily, it does not cause any harm.

Regarding your statement about increasing the radius to 5 Km, I again say that all the businesses which have been affected, they were set up after taking due permissions from the authorities. They had factored in basic calculations for their return on the investments. All this hard earned money and effort cannot go down the drain because someone decided to let the liquor flow and another person got hurt.

Courts are present to give judgements on a fair assessment. How is this fair when none of the victims of this order were even given a chance to speak ?

I understand the pain of those who lost someone because of DUI, but they have to be logical. Business demands logic. Why is emotion clouding everything logical in this matter?

[sdp1975]

Originally Posted by Stratosphere

Alcohol is the same. If ingested responsibily, it does not cause any harm.

I'm going to make some quotes of what Mahatma Gandhi thought of alcohol,economics and prohibition.

Taking intoxicating liquors is almost like committing suicide, because a man or a women who takes intoxicating drinks and gets mad, kills his or her soul, for the time being. Surely death of the soul is worse than death of the body.

It is criminal to spend the income from the sale of intoxicants on the education of the nation’s children or other public services.

The loss of revenue is only apparent. Removal of this degrading tax enables the drinker, i.e, the tax-payer, to earn and spend better. Apart, therefore, from the tremendous gain, it means a substantial economic gain, it means a substantial economic gain, to the nation…

In America drinking carries no shame with it. It is the fashion there to drink.

But why should prevention of illicit distillation cost any more than prevention of other crimes? I should make illicit distillation heavily punishable and think no more about it. Some of it will go on perhaps till doomsday as thieving will. I would not set up a special agency to prey into illicit distillation. But I would punish anyone found drunk through not disorderly (in the legal sense) in streets or other public places with substantial fine or alternatively with indeterminate imprisonment to end when the erring one has earned his or her keep.

Source

[Samurai]

Mahatma Gandhi was a genius when it came to his understanding of law and social justice. But his thoughts on economics, military, morality or relationship were not exactly stellar, but it didn't stop him from talking about them.

Just because he was brilliant in one thing, you can't take his words as gospel on everything else. For example, he didn't want India to have a military or large industries. His disciples over decades have tried to re-interpret his words to sound more meaningful, but his words are out there in the open for everyone to see.

Now, let's come back to topic. This thread is not about morality, but about the effect of liquor ban on NH/SH. Will it help reduce DUI and what is the collateral damage.

[navin]

Originally Posted by noopster

I understand that the original litigant in this case was himself a victim of drunk driving that caused him a permanent disability.

I don't know but from what I read he and his companions were all sober when they had their accident. See link.
Harman said, “We were all sober. I was sitting in the back seat and the car spun in the air many times ...."
https://yourstory.com/2017/01/harman-singh-sidhu/

Making our roads safe from accidents has little to do with the distance of the liquor shops from the highways. It has more to do with proper crossings, road signs, road construction, fencing (in areas where animals may wander on to the road), etc.

Instead of asking why there are liquor shops within 500 meters he should be asking why there was no system to prevent the car he was in from falling "60-70 feet" before coming to a stop. My then boss and I had a similar accident (in the winter of '86) on the Taconic State Parkway in a Ford Granada. My then boss was driving and we were both belted when on an early winter morning a deer bolted across the road; we swerved off the road to hit a tree off the side of the road (we must have travelled about 10 feet off the road to hit that tree). Since we were belted we were just a little shaken up. The car could not be moved so we flagged down a passing car and managed to get help. Looking back (and comparing the roads in India to other developed nations) I find that it is the condition of our roads that should be changed. That's the REAL challenge.

Harman's organization (Arrive Safe) also promotes other safe driving initiatives including the wearing of seatbelts and helmets and while "Drinking and Driving" is an obvious cause for accidents moving a liquor shop 500 meters is hardly a deterrent for a person in a car. Politicians are just making the liquor industry a scape goat because actually doing something constructive about the general condition of the road (signs, crossings, barriers and fencing, etc.) requires them to do REAL work.

[Samurai]

Karnataka government is finally doing something to save their major revenue source and save the industry from total destruction. Will it work, who knows?

The NH/SH that passes through city limits are usually maintained by the city. The center doesn't pay for it. So KA government will denotify those parts alone, saving the bars that reside within the city limits. That will satisfy the SC order. However, the central government has to agree to this. So it finally comes down to the reality that faces state government vs ideology of central government.

A total stretch of 6,572 km national highway runs through the state of which 858 km national highway passes through the cities and towns. The state government is now attempting to save at least 70 per cent of these shops and also plug the revenue loss that the government would suffer if these shops are shut by denotifying these stretches.

Source

[Sawyer]

I haven't read all of this thread, so I am sure I am not the first to express being very puzzled at how some judges sitting in Delhi can make what look like arbitrary decisions, supposedly in the public interest.

Not that they are necessarily wrong - I see merit in the sun film ban for example - but that isn't the point.

So also the BCCI affair - what has it to do with the SC? Long overdue, but this is something that government should be doing, there is a ministry for sports.

Now for this specific case, there are all the farcical consequences of hasty edicts - like highways that really aren't such anymore. For instance, a club in Pune is on a road that was used by intercity traffic when there wasn't a bypass that is now used instead. I notice that there is a move to exempt such roads. Makes sense, but there is also today an objection by the PWD to this action of not calling them highways - for some convoluted reason that must be making sense to PWD interests! All consequences of an ill considered SC edict.

Just because it is well intentioned does not mean it is a good edict. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

The other things that baffles me is that with so much backlog of cases in our courts, where do the judges get the time to do these extra curricular things?

[nkrishnap]

How to work a way around the Liqour ban on the highways. Karnataka sets an example.

Read Here -

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

How to work a way around the Liqour ban on the highways. Karnataka sets an example.

Actually it is a very good example. Do you know what kind of roads were deemed as national highway on the paper?

Here is the national highway I drive on every day in Manipal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH3VFliatME

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Actually it is a very good example. Do you know what kind of roads were deemed as national highway on the paper?

Here is the national highway I drive on every day in Manipal.

I am aware of the roads in Karnataka. You already have morons driving crazily and add alcohol to it, it becomes even worse.

PS: I am aware that alcohol was sold before too, but if the ban was implement correctly atleast a chance to reduce this menace was there. State governments are hand in glove with this non sense.

[sdp1975]

Apparently , there's a significant drop in drunk driving after the liqour ban came to effect :

Nagpur: Cases of driving while drunk have fallen dramatically on city roads after the ban on sale of liquor on state and national highways led to closure of most bars and wine shops. The overall 50% drop in drunk driving cases was seen almost completely in areas located along the highways

Traffic data for the first two months of this financial year shows a drastic fall in the number of drunk driving offenders, with only 1,664 cases reported in April and May 2017 as against 3,340 in the corresponding period in 2016. Traffic police officials attribute this to the Supreme Court order banning liquor shops on national and state highways across the country from April 2017.

Source

Additional data collected over a longer period - say about a year - should show how effective the ban has been.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

State governments are hand in glove with this non sense.

Denotification of highways are short term measures that won't work for long.

Unless sincere efforts are taken to stop deaths and accidents, it's a matter of time before another PIL is filed and the courts step in.

[Stratosphere]

http://bit.ly/2sP9C78

The ban will most certainly lead to a worse quality of major roads in our country due to de-notification. As if the residents of our country needed that. Deaths due to improper infrastructure were already high enough, now we'll have a boost in their numbers and no one will take responsibility.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

PS: I am aware that alcohol was sold before too, but if the ban was implement correctly atleast a chance to reduce this menace was there. State governments are hand in glove with this non sense.

All around the world, DUI is controlled by treating it like a crime, by the police. The DUI in metros like Bangalore/Mumbai reduced only because of strict DUI enforcement by police.

Originally Posted by sdp1975

Apparently , there's a significant drop in drunk driving after the liqour ban came to effect

That is quite possible if there was no DUI enforcement in the first place. In the middle ages, Scottish nuns used to disfigure their faces by cutting their nose, to avoid rape by Vikings. This liquor ban works exactly like that. Destroy hospitality industry to stop DUI.

Originally Posted by Stratosphere

The ban will most certainly lead to a worse quality of major roads in our country due to de-notification. As if the residents of our country needed that. Deaths due to improper infrastructure were already high enough, now we'll have a boost in their numbers and no one will take responsibility.

These are all the collateral damage caused by ideological ruling that didn't have facts on hand. State is desperate to save one of their largest revenue stream. State would bankrupt otherwise.

People who are applauding the SC decision don't realise that hospitality industry is mainly powered by liquor income. Without that, most hotels with outstanding loans will be forced to close down. Alright, let me give some details.

Check this news from Feb 2016. KA government encouraged lots of businesses to create liquor stores and bars. Guess what happens to them now?

Karnataka also has a category called CL-7 to encourage tourism. To avail that license, the hotel must have 22 rooms available for rent, a conference room, bar and veg restaurant. Out of this bar is the only real profit center, rest are cost centers. Also, without the bar, rest of the facilities will barely get customers. Using the CL-7 license, KA government ensured that lots of investment flowed into hospitality industry, mainly fueled by loans. Now the SC ruling has ensured that all these businesses will close down.

All this happened because police are not actively doing DUI enforcement. In the coastal area where I stay half the time, nobody is afraid of getting caught by DUI checks. Every night party involves heavy drinking and everybody drives back.

This attempt to reduce DUI via supply route is killing the hospitality industry and now destroying roads too.

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

All around the world, DUI is controlled by treating it like a crime, by the police. The DUI in metros like Bangalore/Mumbai reduced only because of strict DUI enforcement by police.

What exactly did the police in Bangalore or Mumbai do, that reduced DUI in Bangalore or Mumbai in the 6-8 PM window?

The rest of it is all beaten to death. Tourism industry in Kerala was shown - with numbers - to be growing despite the booze ban there. DUI is increasing in the US at least.

https://www.scramsystems.com/blog/20...s-in-10-years/

Incidentally - the nearest DUI checkpoing near my house is at NAL gate in Murugesh Palya. So drivers who have actually consumed alcohol go via 12th Main/4th Main and Suranjan Das Road to hit OA Road from Indira Nagar. Easily avoids the DUI check.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by binand

What exactly did the police in Bangalore or Mumbai do, that reduced DUI in Bangalore or Mumbai in the 6-8 PM window?

The rest of it is all beaten to death. Tourism industry in Kerala was shown - with numbers - to be growing despite the booze ban there. DUI is increasing in the US at least.

There is significantly less drunk driving at that time, that's why the checking is less, certainly there are random checks at that time at those times, you may not be aware of this.

Kerala tourism is growing at 6% where Sri Lankan tourism is growing at 20%, there is huge drop in numbers. People in the industry don't agree with the government propaganda which you seem to have swallowed. The booze ban is another irritating aspect in addition to high visa fees and excess red tape. Tourists regret having wasted their holiday in a dry place and say that they would have been better off choosing South East Asia. Does the government advertise in tourism roadshows that alcohol is not freely available?

The MICE sector has been battered by the ban, with growth at a standstill when additional capacity has been added. All that investment has gone down the tube adding to the NPAs of banks that are already stressed.

[TorqueyTechie]

Few years back, say around 2007-08 there used to a stringent checks in and around koramangala, Indiranagar, MG road and few areas where the concentration of pubs/bars/lounges were high. It used to happen just some 100 mtrs from these establishments and also at places where you had no chance of escaping. I used to admire the cops for their ingenuity.

After few years , circa 2012 when I was on vacation and happen to visit one of the lounges in Koramanagala I noticed that there were no cops and when quizzed the establishment said that they (all the establishments on that stretch I believe) have taken care of the cops menace. (yes they did say menace)

What I mean to say is that its a vicious circle of one feeding the other. Government, cops and the business owners. Government wants money (legal and illegal), cops (well atleast few of them) want to perform their duty but again will not or cannot do it and business owners, lets say they are there to do business and by any means. In the end, "Sabse bada rupaiyya, bhaiyya".