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Old 4th April 2018, 13:18   #31
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

That failure is not due to sudden impact.

Reasons of failure:
1. To me it looks like torsional fatigue+strength reduction(may be due to corrosion).
or
2. Stress concentration due to notches

Just take the failed parts and send it to an independent metallurgical lab and check failed surface, chemical composition, and mechanical tests.

N.B - Any so called special investigation team from companies try prove that failure is NOT due to company's mistake. Whatever checks and analysis they do is to prove the same.

Last edited by Latheesh : 4th April 2018 at 13:29.
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Old 4th April 2018, 14:49   #32
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

Chances that this happened due to a defect are high.

I can say this from my personal experience. One of our family members crashed his Swift at 150 km/hr back in 2015.

The car rolled over 2 times and the main thing is that the left rear axle took an intense hit due to which the tyre got bent at a significant angle.
When the car was being towed, whole car was hoping due to the bent axle. The car was towed 15 kms away from the accident spot and the car hoped the whole time.

When it was inspected by the insurance guy it was found that the axle was completely intact even after taking such a intense hit and 12 kms of hoping.
There was no crack or anything whatsoever present!

The car companies should not adjudge on the basis of visual inspection. In such cases they must rely on thorough qualitative analysis.
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Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?-img20180404wa0017.jpg  


Last edited by Rehaan : 4th April 2018 at 16:36. Reason: Post edited. Lots of errors, please proof read your post before submitting. Thanks.
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Old 4th April 2018, 15:03   #33
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

TML concluded that the accident happened due to driver's mistake - did they share their report with the car owner or just the one line conclusion / email communication.

It will be injustice to the owner if a transparent report is not shared. It was a new car and accident could have resulted in fatalities.

Just because insurance would absorb most of the repair expenditure does not mean that the manufacture can wash its hands without sitting across the table and clarifying the concerns of the owner. If the claim of car owner is correct, that the accident happened all by itself, even a fully repaired / new car will not give him / her confidence to risk life of his family members again. It will be a loss of trust in the brand.

I am sure Tata's would provide necessary support in this instance as well as ensure that other owners and perspective buyers of Tiago / Tigor are assured of the quality and workmanship.

Last edited by i74js : 4th April 2018 at 15:04.
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Old 4th April 2018, 15:31   #34
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagzrk View Post
Parts on Tata cars fail and how. Service centers steal, replace good parts with defective and openly fleece customers. Every single one of them I tried in my city Pune. Once I received my car with the brakes NOT working after service.
If its one good advice I can give about cars - stay away from Tata cars like they're the plague if you want a peaceful life with your car.
You are perfectly right buddy. I have experienced the same with our present Nano Twist XT. We purchased the same as used car from a reputed TATA dealer. It had many problems like wrong tyre (135/70) on rear wheel, brakes failed within few months, gearbox issues. We had opted to buy from TATA dealer so that we can get a good used car but they didn't check anything and didn't even negotiate on price. It was a "lena hai to loh"(buy if you want or get lost) type attitude. We didn't want to spend more money so went for used nano as our second car.

TATA service is a classic example of pathetic people. They charge you for pickup and drop. Maruti never charged me for that, even for my first car Maruti 800 the service was very good. Recently for our Maruti Vehicle, the pickup guy could not come and another guy came late. The service center apologized for that and gave me free wax polish.

Our nano broke down a couple of months back after hitting a non standard speed breaker. Fuel line was hit so it could not start. They sent tow van after 2 days and took another 2 days to start work. Fortunately the car was at home when it refused to start.

This is our 2nd nano car and after these first hand experiences, I will suggest to stay away from TATA cars. I wish that in future they will improve but at present conditions are very bad.

Trivia: I have heard that TATA Motors employees were asked to park their cars outside the company gate in Pune. Saw a surge in cars parked outside too. Did they really do that? I mean how can a company making cars refuses to allow people coming by cars into their premises .
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Old 4th April 2018, 15:49   #35
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

First and foremost, I am glad that the owner and all family members got out alive - tells us why wearing seat belts is a must.

I somehow find it hard to believe that the axle on a newish car could have broken due to routine wear on a 65 kph turn. The stress on the axle at the turn simply cannot break even a poor quality part. What could have happened is a combination of factors : 1) the car may have hit something - perhaps a stone or perhaps the left rear wheel slid of the roadway; 2) Perhaps the driver dozed off (micro sleep is a huge risk with early starts) and either hit something or ended driving much faster than 65 kph; and 3) perhaps the part was weak as even sliding off the highway or hitting a smallish stone at somewhat above 65 kph should not topple a car. Very tough to prove anything and in a crash where everyone got away alive, cops are not going to investigate (in India or anywhere else).
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Old 4th April 2018, 16:56   #36
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

I'm not an expert in metallurgy in any way, but my work involves material handling and have come across many broken chain slings. My opinion is that the fracture appears brittle and clean. The axle stud appears to have been welded along the circumference with the backing plate. The fracture is not due to shearing (Torsional load). It is due to impact only. May be TATA team is right. If both front and Rear Left wheel rims have same depth of dents and scratches (as reported by TATA), then both wheels are intact when the vehicle skidded on its side before flipping. That has to be verified. If wheels intact till the car flipped over, then the rear wheel axle stub breakage would have happened when the car landed heavily on its wheels while flipping.
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Old 4th April 2018, 20:25   #37
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

We can't really draw any conclusions based on solid evidence but the following factors come to mind:

1. Why did the axle break only at a sharp bend? Of course it is possible but it makes one suspicious of the driver going too fast on a dark road and failing to notice the sharp bend.

2. Why did it occur in the dark after a a start at a very late night/ super early morning hour? Why not any other time during the past year? Of course it can again be a coincidence but it raises suspicions of driver fatigue and the possibility of hitting a stone, a pothole or even missing the edge of the road.

3. There must be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of similar vehicles using the same type of components. Have we heard of other similar failures?

Last edited by Lobogris : 4th April 2018 at 20:26.
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Old 4th April 2018, 20:45   #38
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

What we're probably missing out is the previous 7k kms of its run prior to this journey. It may have come with a faulty axle which may have hit big obstacles previously, and probably more than once which added to the damage. Final thing took off when CSC came into play on the turn. The compounded effect may have caused this damage. My theory; and I'm no expert on this.
Just that Tata is a respectable brand, and they shouldn't play the much infamous Ford way of keeping mum about a known fault.
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Old 5th April 2018, 09:28   #39
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

Simple logic: Any metal has torsion coefficient and ductility coefficient high which makes it JUST bend even when sudden high force is applied OR gradual pressure is applied

For a 1 year old car, if it is normal axle with quality metal, then, the axle should have been "bent" instead of "break" whether if it was a stone hit (Assuming driver lost control and hit a stone/rock - Read sudden Impact) OR gradual pressure increase (Since car turns right, pressure on left axle gradually increases due to car and passenger weight)

The road curve is not so deep that the axle breaks even if the car was with 150 KMPH.

So, logically, this looks to me as quality issue of the axle.
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Old 5th April 2018, 10:17   #40
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

According to the knowledge I have procured all these year's, I don't think that the axle of the car can break so easily.
There must be some or the other reasons behind that:
1. The car might have met with an accident involving the rear end.
2. The car would have been overloaded.
3. The car might have taken an under belly blow making the axle rod defective.

P.S - I'm not against what the owner of the car is saying. Materialistic things can be bought anytime soon but life is more precious.
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Old 5th April 2018, 10:55   #41
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

I am happy that all occupants survived a major accident. While the structural integrity of the car seems solid, I have my thoughts otherwise for the heart and soul of the car.
Reading your comments here, I feel it is quite obvious for manufacturers to save their reputation and cost by doing these biased investigations (poor street lights? are you kidding me?)
Bear in mind, insurance will not cover if TATA admits this to be a manufacturing defect and in that case the whole expense will be borne by TATA motors (which they would never want to do).
It is hard to say if the driver or the mechanics of the car failed, one thing is for sure, these investigations by manufacturers are near-never going to be in favour of the customer.
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Old 5th April 2018, 11:08   #42
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

Sorry to hear about the accident and happy that there were no injuries and everyone is safe. I am not qualified enough to comment on the nature and root cause of the accident but feel that the response from Tata was sub standard. In case where the car has flipped and is completely unusable, they should have given it top priority to arrange a toe vehicle and if possible an escort vehicle for ferrying the passengers.
I had a similar situation where i was stranded due to front axle failure where the car just stalled. Unfortunately, it was 11 pm in the night and i was near the bharatpur bird sanctuary and bharatpur is known as a slightly notorious area. When i called the MSIL help center, though they did not have anyone readily available, they searched for all possibilities and sent a car toeing vehicle to take my car to the nearest service center in about 90 minutes. Though the toe vehicle and people were not the best but it helped me move the vehicle safely to a service center in the middle of the night in a notorious area.
Later the service center called me and shared the estimate etc and i got my car repaired in 4 days. When my honda met an accident, it was idling two weeks in the shop for want of part. Since then, I have become an ardent faithful of MSIL.
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Old 5th April 2018, 20:51   #43
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

That is not fatigue failure for sure. Fatigue failure for shafts will have much less jagged edges and will have some form of necking even with reverse bending load.

It really looks like someone did a proper impact test on the shaft.

The point on the shaft where it failed is exactly between the brake drum covers and the brake drum has a large chunk missing from the impact of a rock or something like that.

I think Tata motors was right in assessing the damage to be from driver error.
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Old 6th April 2018, 08:31   #44
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

Since this is a serious case to be looked into, I would suggest the car's owner to get an independent investigation team to analyse the issue. Suggestion to the car owner on these lines will be more beneficial to him. He can look for academicians from reputed institutions or contact the labs of such institutions to know whether they can be consulted for a fee.
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Old 6th April 2018, 19:33   #45
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Re: Tata Tigor Accident - Axle breaks on the highway. Driver error or manufacturing defect?

HI
As GK Veda suggested Axles and most other part of Drive train are made up of Tensile steel, and one of very basic reiterations of Automobile engineering is Safety from breakdown and failures of critical components like axles, connecting rods, crank shafts, differential shafts, gears etc etc.
Steel is used, so that in worst case the object or that particular component does Not break suddenly.

You might have seen Tata vehicles use considerably more Metal in their vehicles, But it seemingly looks more reliable and Safe, But the fact is that the Quality off Material used by them is Much Low than what is used by Maruti, Hyundai, Toyota or even Nissan.
A Lot of tata vehicles you can come across being Towed, Rear or front Axle broken, Rear wheel broken from Hub, Differential shaft shear and broken, Rusting in body and chassis. In All of their vehicles be in Tata Winger, ACE, Indicas, Trucks. Since Material cost is high proportion of Production cost therefore Tata wants to save big on this and Uses much lower quality material or recycled and Mixed material from various Sources.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gkveda View Post
Simple logic: Any metal has torsion coefficient and ductility coefficient high which makes it JUST bend even when sudden high force is applied OR gradual pressure is applied

For a 1 year old car, if it is normal axle with quality metal, then, the axle should have been "bent" instead of "break" whether if it was a stone hit (Assuming driver lost control and hit a stone/rock - Read sudden Impact) OR gradual pressure increase (Since car turns right, pressure on left axle gradually increases due to car and passenger weight)

The road curve is not so deep that the axle breaks even if the car was with 150 KMPH.

So, logically, this looks to me as quality issue of the axle.
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