[hserus]

Man shot and killed by a Lucknow cop.

Apparently his car hit a divider and went out of control or something and he then didn't stop when a cop asked him to (may have been in shock from the accident), so the cop shot him dead.

http://www.jantakareporter.com/india...ucknow/210529/


This article has more details. All this took place at 1.30 AM, this guy was apparently sitting with an ex colleague in his car and when the cops came he panicked and ran over their bike. They then shot him. The cops in question have been slapped with murder charges.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...SPCx2HRPI.html

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by hserus

This article has more details. All this took place at 1.30 AM, this guy was apparently sitting with an ex colleague in his car and when the cops came he panicked and ran over their bike. They then shot him. The cops in question have been slapped with murder charges.

Mid of night, cops flag a car. Instead of stopping, the car hits the cops' bike. Cops fire, the driver is killed. Cops are sacked and the murder charges are filed against them. Appears like the victim's family is well connected.

[arunphilip]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Mid of night, cops flag a car. Instead of stopping, the car hits the cops' bike. Cops fire, the driver is killed. Cops are sacked and the murder charges are filed against them. Appears like the victim's family is well connected.

Yeah, it is pretty surprising at how strong language is being used by the police department itself against their own staff, and this is on day 1 itself, not at the conclusion of any investigation.

Calling the accused cops "rouges in uniform," the DGP said: "We are determined to punish and wean out such rouges in uniform who hang our heads in shame."

He has constituted a Special Investigation Team under IG Lucknow to probe the case. "A murder case has been filed against both the constables. We believe that the cops resorted to aggression which wasn't required," he told India Today TV.

By afternoon, an FIR under Section 302 (murder) of the Indian Penal Code was registered with the Gomti Nagar police station and both the constables were terminated.

I wouldn't say our police (some individuals and organizationally) are exemplary, but as the law enforcers they do get certain privileges in the actions they take in this enforcement.

The US takes the defence of offending police officers to another extreme (a very high bar to be proven guilty), but their process is a little more structured - being put on administrative duty, or suspension (with pay) while the investigation rolls on, and finally concludes with either a reinstatement/penalty/firing.

If these constables are being hung out to dry in such a manner by the DGP before any investigation has occurred, then it is one of two things:

1. They are being made scapegoats of, to appease the civilians involved, even before any investigation has run its course
2. Or, there is a wider problem of rogue constables that the police leadership are aware of and haven't tackled till date until this newsworthy incident occurred

Either way, the police leadership end up looking quite unprofessional.

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by sridhu

My thoughts exactly.

I really liked the way UK handled accidentally killing an innocent suspected of being one of the terrorists in the London bombings: they acknowledged the mistake, apologised and moved on.

If the police chief does not back its own, how will any policeman take initiative? And the media is surprised when 2 policemen do not do any thing when someone was hacked in Hyderabad on a busy street.

What an absurd analogy, comparing police response to a terrorist attack with a trigger happy constable!!! And the going even further and comparing it to daylight murder. Your analogy is appalling (because you compare the action of the deceased with that of a murderer) and frankly insults the common sense of those you intend to read it.

The police chief should charge him with homicide and not back him; crashing into a police motorcycle or jumping a barricade is not an excuse to discharge a firearm. There can be many many innocent reasons why a person might do that - brake failure, he dosed off and so on. As a driver yourself, surely it wont be difficult to imagine these. The response to that ought to be calibrated and not gun fire.

BTW, I would suggest you watch that video of a bunch of UK cops disarming a knife wielding maniac without firing a shot - that is what exemplary police action looks like.

[lazy]

Originally Posted by basuroy

The police chief should charge him with homicide and not back him ; crashing into a police motorcycle or jumping a barricade is not an excuse to discharge a firearm.

I hope you are not serious.

It is 0130 AM, cops probably gestured him to step out which he wouldn't have, then he runs over the cops.
And we don't want the cops to open fire. Really? What are we expecting here, that he will whistle and run behind the car.

It is really unfortunate that a life is lost, of a person that wasn't a criminal. The cops shouldn't be punished here, instead the society needs to give more space to individuals to meet and talk so that they don't have to meet in such shady conditions that attracts the wrong attention.

cheers
lazy

[Thad E Ginathom]

Life is cheap on the road. It's it cheap in this forum too?

What next? Speed cameras with automatic guns to shoot the driver?

The shooting incident is not about an accident. Hope the conversation might be moved elsewhere. Mod's decision

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by lazy

I hope you are not serious.

It is 0130 AM, cops probably gestured him to step out which he wouldn't have, then he runs over the cops.
And we don't want the cops to open fire. Really? What are we expecting here, that he will whistle and run behind the car.

It is really unfortunate that a life is lost, of a person that wasn't a criminal. The cops shouldn't be punished here, instead the society needs to give more space to individuals to meet and talk so that they don't have to meet in such shady conditions that attracts the wrong attention.

cheers
lazy

Let us get the story straight first, I don't believe he ran over any cop but that he jumped the barricade and crashed into their parked motorbike. Neither cop was rammed into.

If I were the cop on scene, I would assume -
1. Driver is drunk.
2. Driver lost control either due to automobile failure or sleep.
3. Driver is potential miscreant.

What I wont do is fire my gun even if he stays put in his car refusing my orders or decides to drive away. Discharging a weapon is a serious responsibility that should be reserved for the rarest of the rare situations. This is not an ego battle where you unleash your wrath if they fail to do as told. A Kolkata volunteer traffic cop did something similar to a motorcyclist a few months back killing his wife in the process (hit the biker with a baton when he didn't stop resulting in the bike coming under a truck).

I myself wont get out of a car in UP so late in the night even if a person seemingly dressed in police uniform told me to; especially if there is a woman in car. I have worked in UP for 4 years and I wont. I would run away and surrender at a police station but never disembark in the middle of a road.

ps: BTW why would you assume they were having an affair when the story is he was dropping her off? Society should be open I agree but with folks like you jumping to scandalous conclusions, how can it ever be?

[roby_dk]

Originally Posted by basuroy

The police chief should charge him with homicide and not back him; crashing into a police motorcycle or jumping a barricade is not an excuse to discharge a firearm.

What is the point in running from police when you are not involved in any criminal activity. How will the cop know that the person behind the wheel is a saint and he is just on a late night joy ride. Crashing into police motorcycle is not wrong, jumping a barricade post the incident and running like a drug peddler or wanted criminal is wrong.

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

What is the point in running from police when you are not involved in any criminal activity. How will the cop know that the person behind the wheel is a saint and he is just on a late night joy ride. Crashing into police motorcycle is not wrong, jumping a barricade post the incident and running like a drug peddler or wanted criminal is wrong.

Hey hey hey, nothing in the police rules of engagement gives a constable the power to fire even if a driver fails to stop at a barricade. He can notify checkpoints ahead and note down the number but not fire a gun, this is not something done at the whim or fancy of an individual but codified into rules. A police has to follow rules, he is not a judge cum executioner who can assume things based on action/inaction but that is what you get with a government promoting encounter culture.

It is 1.30am in the night, I don't know what the locality looks like but that late in night, I would never disembark my car in middle of the road (unless it is a well lit and busy place like Connaught place in Delhi) but surrender at a police station if some random checkpoint asked me to stop. What is stopping miscreants from purchasing police uniform, stopping unsuspecting cars and then robbing and raping the occupants? I would rather face criminal case of running away than being robbed.

This is what the Director General had to say - "Constable said that he did it under self defence cover but self defence can't exceed the threat perception and we got a case lodged. It is a pure crime."

Defence cannot exceed threat perception.




Not from Support: Post fixed - spacing. Please check before posting. Thanks!

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Instead of stopping, the car hits the cops' bike. Cops fire, the driver is killed. Cops are sacked.

Originally Posted by sridhu

If the police chief does not back its own, how will any policeman take initiative? And the media is surprised when 2 policemen do not do any thing when someone was hacked in Hyderabad on a busy street

Originally Posted by arunphilip

rogue constables

Originally Posted by lazy

And we don't want the cops to open fire.

Originally Posted by roby_dk

How will the cop know that the person behind the wheel is a saint and he is just on a late night joy ride.

Arguments both for and against the persecution of trigger happy constables have merit. While the cops' claim of self defence cannot be mistrusted, the survivor's contrary statement too cannot be discounted at all. Its a classic case of your word against mine and therefore unless there is some concrete evidence in the form of CCTV footages or call recordings, it is nigh impossible to pin guilt on either of the parties involved.

However, since the cop was carrying a service firearm, he ought to have had an executive order from a competent authority to use it (Laws !). Even if that was not possible, - given the self defence angle - the cop should have shot the suspect in the legs and not above the waist. Better still, he should have shot at the tyres of the car (Bollywood style?). I know I am getting ahead of myself here, but I feel the man didn't deserve to die.

I remember a safety audit orchestrated by a very dynamic Deputy Commissioner of Mysore during a general election almost fifteen years ago. He went around incognito in a private car at night and when flagged down at a check post on the outskirts of the city, drove ahead without stopping. Unaware of the audit, the men on duty gave chase, informed other checkposts, marshalled more men and kept tailing the car. The DC deftly played around till a walkie message informed him that a suspected terrorist could be trying to cause havoc and permission was sought to fire upon the car and if need be, on the driver!

Rules are made for a reason.

That brings me to this accurately worded opinion; and I fully concur with this and the subsequently quoted posts.

Originally Posted by basuroy

nothing in the police rules of engagement gives a constable the power to fire even if a driver fails to stop at a barricade . He can notify checkpoints ahead and note down the number but not fire a gun , this is not something done at the whim or fancy of an individual but codified into rules

Originally Posted by basuroy

I myself wont get out of a car in UP so late in the night even if a person seemingly dressed in police uniform told me to ; especially if there is a woman in car.

We are after all talking of a police unit that is unfortunately not known to be a paragon of virtue.

UP Cops Invite Journalists To Watch Encounter, Shoot Dead Two Men

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by basuroy

Defence cannot exceed threat perception.

In a country like US or A, the opening of fire would be a perfectly normal expected response from the cops. But in a country like ours, fire is opened in very rare cases. This doesn't appear like a rare case.
What is surprising is the both the SP of Lucknow and DG of UP declaring that that incident was murder, without even waiting for the post-mortem results (to find whether bullet killed him or the accident), or for the departmental inquiry. They promised the incident will be investigated by SIT. The Chief Minister even promised CBI inquiry if required.
On one hand, we have incidents like police refusing the FIR or even accept a complaint. We have other extreme like this incident where police are head over heels 'to find justice'.

[arunphilip]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

We are after all talking of a police unit that is unfortunately not known to be a paragon of virtue.

Oh, my post wasn't in defence of the constables, it was an indictment of the leadership of that police force. All I was calling out was that it's easier for the police leadership to blame the incident on rogue constables and make them the culprit, rather than admit systemic failures in leadership, training, oversight, etc.

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by msdivy

In a country like US or A, the opening of fire would be a perfectly normal expected response from the cops. But in a country like ours, fire is opened in very rare cases. This doesn't appear like a rare case.
What is surprising is the both the SP of Lucknow and DG of UP declaring that that incident was murder, without even waiting for the post-mortem results (to find whether bullet killed him or the accident), or for the departmental inquiry. They promised the incident will be investigated by SIT. The Chief Minister even promised CBI inquiry if required.
On one hand, we have incidents like police refusing the FIR or even accept a complaint. We have other extreme like this incident where police are head over heels 'to find justice'.

USA is a pseudo police state so they are a rather unfit example, I mean I have seen videos of cops using taser guns on 12 year olds.


As for the reaction, it is quite simply really - the family is evidently upper class and based on deceased's brother-in-law's language, a BJP supporting family so they will get the proper treatment. Already 25 lakh compensation has been sanctioned (I personally detest this kind of compensation; you don't see those penniless sewer cleaners dying every week getting any). FIR is refused when the victim is from the more marginalised segments of society. A very hard and disheartening reality.

ps: I am not against compensation as such but it ought to follow a rule and not be dissed out based on popularity of the crime/as a PR management. We have seen sums as high as 1 crore being granted without any rule or regulation to dictate how the compensation ought to be calculated.

Arun Phillip above also makes a very good point, by charging him with murder, the seniors are washing their hands off this scandal. The same DGP is also responsible for promoting an encounter culture in the state which is in gross violation of law. An IPS officer of his stature is expected to have the common sense that sooner than later, his own men will come to consider themselves as the law and executioner putting every innocent at their mercy.


Not from Support: Post fixed - spacing. Please check before posting. Thanks!

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by sridhu

If the police chief does not back its own, how will any policeman take initiative? And the media is surprised when 2 policemen do not do any thing when someone was hacked in Hyderabad on a busy street.

Media should be surprised when a man is being hacked to death on a busy street in broad daylight and Police not doing its job. I am appalled at the analogy being made here.

Police's job is not to take "initiative", their job is to uphold the law and the law has strict requirements when it comes to discharging a fire weapon.

Originally Posted by basuroy

What an absurd analogy, comparing police response to a terrorist attack with a trigger happy constable!!! And the going even further and comparing it to daylight murder. Your analogy is appalling (because you compare the action of the deceased with that of a murderer) and frankly insults the common sense of those you intend to read it.

Absolutely. We know the state of law and order in UP, we know how policing works in India and yet the benefit of doubt goes to UP Police. Even then, as per the prescribed law he cannot discharge a weapon in this case.

[sridhu]

I had not intended to respond but I will try once more and then may be shut up

I don't understand why it is an absurd analogy other than, of course, because it goes against your own opinions.

In both cases an officer of the law had to react to a non-SOP event to the best of their judgement & ability. And they did. It should be noted that it after-the-event information is not available to the police man when he took the action.

If the action was not commensurate with the threat then it is an internal matter for the department to handle, and censure if necessary.

How would you guys have reacted of it turned out that the guy in the car was indeed a terrorist or a criminal?

Now think, if it is not too difficult, how the guy on patrol at 1:30 am when confronted by a miscreant who has already broken the law by not stopping (indeed trying to run over him) would think it is some minor threat? What would indicate that the guy who did not stop Is "safe". By what measure?

If you can't, I can't explain any further.