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Old 18th March 2021, 22:17   #76
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

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Quote:
I want to assure the House that within one year all physical toll booths in the country will be removed. It means that toll collection will happen via GPS," said Nitin Gadkari in Lok Sabha
What has this Nitin been smoking?

Somebody might want to be point out to Nitin that GPS is completely incapable of doing that. All GPS can do is provide a device (receiver) with location information. Nothing is send back to the satellites, only location relevant information is beamed down. That is all. The device can figure out the location (and speed and altitude if it is clever enough). But it does not broadcast anything.

If you want to do away with tool booths and use GPS (i.e. location information) you need as a bare minimum next to a GPS receiver:
  • A GPS device (receiver) in each car
  • A transmitter device in each car that transmit somehow the location and time of each vehicle to some sort of central computer
  • A system that can figure out which GPS device belong to whom and where to send the toll charge
    • The system needs to cater for constant daily changes in who the owner of the GPS is, and needs to cater for providing legal proof that can be challenged in court
    .
e.

Also, I don’t understand this remark either:

Quote:
The money will be collected based on GPS imaging (on vehicles),
GPS does not have imaging capabilities. Period. It does not take images of the earth.

So I don’t think Nitin has a clue, not even remotely, what the hell he is talking about. Complete and utter drivel!

Not to put to fine a point on it, but this whole idea is just beyond belief. Many countries have tried to implement toll and or road tax system based on GPS location of the vehicle.

I don’t think anybody has succeeded yet. It has been on the political agenda here in the Netherlands for a decade. But it is a real bear to implement. Requires a huge investment, requires a tracking device in each vehicle. It means the government knows every second of every day where your car is (huge privacy concerns) etc.

Personally, I think the fast tag system is pretty neat. Works well in India and countries like for instance the USA too. Fairly simple and straightforward, not very high tech, but that can never be a goal in itself I think

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 18th March 2021 at 22:20.
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Old 18th March 2021, 22:25   #77
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

GPS - Global Positioning System - depends upon signals sent from satellites to ‘receivers’ in our devices. Each signal has a transmission time code, satellite code etc - by decoding the codes of 2-3 satellites together the GPS triangulates the position. This is putting it simply. Basically what I am trying to say is that the GPS system is typically one way - the same reason why aircraft over sea cannot be ‘tracked’ by GPS and need a system of transceivers.

How will the system work? Did he mean ‘FASTag’ readers combined with cameras like they have in Dubai, if I am not mistaken. It reads the tag/ number plate and bills toll.

If they taking pictures of number plates and using that for toll then it’s going to be fun! What with fancy number plates, dust and dirt on number plates and mistaken identity.
I have a challan from Pune police for not wearing helmet - on my cars number.

Last edited by torquecurve : 18th March 2021 at 22:27.
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Old 18th March 2021, 22:41   #78
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

J.O.K.E.R.S

What was fast tag for then? Why the toll booths all over the country were made to adapt these if in one year it had to be changed to something else? Why were people being made to order stuff and then change it later in a year's time.

These guys can't plan anything. Demonetization, GST, nothing. The Dosa stall outside my lane has more planning capabilities than these folks who run a 1.3 billion plus population country.
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Old 18th March 2021, 22:44   #79
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

Tall claims by Politicians, Lousy planning by Babus & Pathetic execution by Pvt players, I think it totally sums up the way things work in our country. I'll be happy to have just a Barrier free fasttag system implemented where no vehicle has to stop to get their fastag scanned. Just today the Govt said it wants to cut dependency on middle east oil imports, I say eliminate the jams at toll booths and you will have a reduction of atleast 2% of the import bill.
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Old 18th March 2021, 22:47   #80
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

I think I’ll give up driving for good. And sell my car too. Taking a train or a flight will be much better.
I mean I’m fed up of being treated as a law breaker bordering on being a criminal after paying all forms of taxes like road tax, excise, ever increasing insurance premiums and GST even when the vehicle value is going down, ridiculous taxes on fuel, getting PUC, exponential increase in fitness for vehicles over 15 years, cost on acquiring fastag and now this GPS device. Honestly, I haven’t acquired fastag as of now and they make me feel like I’m committing a crime when I drive my car on a highway. Absolved of crime if I pay double the toll. Soon I will be forced-sell this GPS tracking device which will help them track me (thank you so much) and help me pay my toll. Else, I will need to pay 8 times the toll and I’ll be absolved of this crime too until I feel that my privacy is costing way too much than my worth and buy that device to ensure authorities that I’m not a stealing away my own vehicle bought from my hard earned, tax paid money.

All of this solution for a problem that probably never existed.

Last edited by saket77 : 18th March 2021 at 22:49.
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Old 18th March 2021, 22:55   #81
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
The Dosa stall outside my lane has more planning capabilities than these folks who run a 1.3 billion plus population country.
That is exactly because it's not their own money they are swindling. This is free money leeched from the taxpayers' pocket. Union of India has a bottomless coffer as long as taxes are levied.

Your neighborhood dosa stall knows that if the loaned amount is not payed back with interest in due time, there will be consequences. Assets will be repossessed, credit score will be junked, etc.
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Old 18th March 2021, 23:13   #82
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

The fast tag system is fine. If it is the toll booth that they are worried about, they need to implement something like the Salik system in Dubai. Automatic deduction via overhead gates while traffic can flow freely through. For those who don't have sufficient balance let them be fined online like high speed camera tickets. Even though there is the argument that fast tag is useless for those who don't avail highways, I feel it is better if every car is made to take the tag compulsorily regardless of location. Let the cops fine cars without tags. That way this menace will be over and we can freely drive on highways without booths.

Last edited by TrackDay : 18th March 2021 at 23:17.
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Old 19th March 2021, 08:51   #83
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Re: India to be tollbooth barrier-free by 2022

Modi - There are clouds and rains, we can take benefit of it (https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/...418-2019-05-12)

Gadkari - There are satellites and GPS, we can take benefit of it (https://indianexpress.com/article/in...dkari-7234003/)

We sure rely on heaven much more than science and logic.
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Old 19th March 2021, 09:06   #84
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Re: India to be tollbooth barrier-free by 2022

The state of Massachussetts eliminated toll booths in 2017 after a reckless driver killed a booth operator in 2016. Every vehicles that passes by periodically placed high masts gets photographed. If the number plate that's snapped has a mapped EZ-Pass (the US' version of Fastag), that account is charged for toll. Otherwise, a toll bill is snail-mailed to the vehicle's registration address.

This is a far better system if you ask me, even though implementation challenges will be terrible. It'd be obviously better to persist with toll booths and instead to have booths where you don't have to stop. Let's have Fastag express booths where you can whiz by at 100 Kmph, just as some booths in the US are EZ pass express booths where you can whiz by at 80 mph.
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Old 19th March 2021, 09:14   #85
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Re: India to be tollbooth barrier-free by 2022

What kind of dreams people get! Before even thinking of implementing this, they should ensure better use of FasTag. One time they suggest FasTag be used for fuel filling, one time they'll say it can be used for parking fee! I feel it's not him but the bureaucracy speaking.
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Old 19th March 2021, 09:26   #86
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Re: India to be tollbooth barrier-free by 2022

Some facts

Personal IT tax - 30% plus surcharges (35+)
Taxes on Fuel- 200%
GST on cars - 50%
Custom duty on cars -60/ 100%
Road Tax on cars - 7-20%

And we still need to pay Toll for some of the most unsafe roads.
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Old 19th March 2021, 09:28   #87
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Re: India to be tollbooth barrier-free by 2022

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Originally Posted by BoneCollector View Post
One time they suggest FasTag be used for fuel filling, one time they'll say it can be used for parking fee! I feel it's not him but the bureaucracy speaking.
Leave alone the GPS imagery thing. Using Fastag for fuel, parking has a precedent. The US' EZPass Plus is exactly the same concept and I've used it to pull out of crazy congestion in the Boston Airport once I signed up to upgrade from EZPass to EZPass Plus program. And like you said, this would be a sensible idea to enhance the existing Fastag program.
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Old 19th March 2021, 10:36   #88
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Re: Toll booths to be removed in a year. Toll collection using GPS

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Originally Posted by torquecurve View Post
How will the system work? Did he mean ‘FASTag’ readers combined with cameras like they have in Dubai, if I am not mistaken. It reads the tag/ number plate and bills toll.
Dubai also uses RFID tags, but their sensors must be very powerful. They just have a arch over the road and even vehicle going at 100kmph get picked up. And if you go through the gate without tag, you get heavily fined.

https://www.rsadirect.ae/blog/unders...k-system-dubai

Indian govt should just remove toll gates and get something powerful like this which can detect Fastag, current ones at tollgate should be some cheap chinese one procured through bribing some officials in NHAI.
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Old 19th March 2021, 11:55   #89
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Re: India to be tollbooth barrier-free by 2022

Before that I am sure government will ensure that roads are pothole free.
Jokes apart, what is the stuff with GPS tracking ? I mean we don't have anything as strong and as good as Google Maps by government and all roads will be monitored by GPS ? That's massive ! Ah! We forgot something, only cars and trucks, busses will be monitored ! Rest two wheelers and three wheelers will be given a free ride ! In my view they should pay very marginal toll, but shouldn't be free. Hope government shares grievance management protocol also.

Why cant we have powerful scanners that read the tags as cars move on highway ? Drive through toll centers, just scanner and nothing else. Much faster, lesser hassle and those cars not having tags will end up paying fine. Although in a nation where we are paying so much indirect tax, toll is itself a wonder, even bigger wonder is GPS. Atleast this should ensure that some time and energy that are wasted due to traffic pile ups at toll booths can be eliminated.
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Old 20th March 2021, 14:12   #90
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Re: India to be tollbooth barrier-free by 2022

GPS based toll collection, looks good on paper, but what about privacy, well I know privacy has become a myth with all the phones, google and IT penetration into our lives, yet doesn't this lead to a direct survellance regime?
As for GPS based toll collection, even today with the fastag, many people do not keep funds in their fastag wallets, what if these GPS linked wallets run out of funds, or someone just doesnt recharge it?

As the minister for transport said all the physical tolls will be removed and the revenue sharing will happen with the toll collection contractors based on the real time GPS data. Being involved in road projects, I know how complex these concession agreements(agreement for contractor to collect toll) are, and there is a huge ecosystem of banking, equity and bonds which are linked to all this. I surely see legislative hurdles here, especially for Public-Private-Partnership road projects physical tolls. Its not that the lawmakers do not know about it, yet they come up once in a while with such absurdity in a random manner!

Lastly the lawmaker has talked about installing GPS device in all vehicles for free of cost in India within the next one year (as by then the physical tolls will be gone), this is seriously contentious, as of now we havent even been able to install basic HSRP on all vehicles in the last 4-5 years.

Few years ago the same minister had talked about abolishing all the RTO's throughout the country and implement a new system in order to curb the curruption and unnecessary lengthy processes currently in practice at RTOs. That too has never happened till date, I seriously think this idea too will meet a similar fate.
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