[akhil_007]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Bangalore itself, the older & properly planned parts, are that way too. Mains and crosses layout.

Jayanagar, JP Nagar, Rajajinagar, Basavangudi, Banashankari, Yelahanka old town, Indiranagar. Take your pick.

I guess you meant Yelahanka "New" Town. Yelahanka Old Town or for that matter any other areas nearby are a disaster. If you are travelling in any of the "main" roads and you take a left or right into the bylanes thinking "lets avoid the traffic & enjoy nature at the same time" and bam!!! There is a dead end Akin to "All or nothing", its either main road or nothing.
Few examples:
1. Road after Philips that goes towards Canadian International School
2. Road next to MORE store on BB road
3. Yelahanka Govt hospital road that goes towards Railway Station
4. Surabhi layout on Maruthi Nagar main road and Vikas layout towards palanahalli

To top it off- its dusty as hell, there are no trees and it doesn't rain frequently . I would called it the Gurgaon of Bangalore or lets say "Dual Cities".

But if you were to see Yelahanka New Town, the vibe is awesome. A Quick zoom-out on google maps shows how amazingly it is planned. I would term it as one of best planned micro-city within Bangalore but sadly its very small

[ValarMorghulis]

Holy Vishnu! There is so much misinformation in your post, that I can't tackle all of it, but I will try, still.

Originally Posted by SourPai

While I see a lot of criticism for tunnel road in Bangalore, BUT the reality is "we need more roads in Bangalore".

No we don't! The govt. can barely manage existing ones.
"A typical road with regular traffic can accommodate 1,800 passengers per hour per direction (PPHD). In contrast, a single-track Metro rail transit system can handle 69,000 PPHD, which is 38.3 times the road capacity".
That's not me but the IISC saying. Link

Originally Posted by SourPai

Either you do it via land acquisition which takes ages and is more expensive or do tunnel roads

Who said this? A km of tunnel road costs Rs.600 cr per km. That's PER KM.
Metro costs ~Rs. 230-400 cr/km (that's including land acqusition. only metro construction costs only 180cr/km).
Link
Link
Link

Originally Posted by SourPai

In fact I am sure they are filling their pockets via pothole filling projects also...
but opposing it completely is not going to help

Of course they are! The DPR report for tunnel roads costs Rs 9.45 cr! Compare that to the DPR cost on the same stretch by the Metro which costs Rs 1.58cr! Link
We should oppose this! Heck, tooth and nail!

Originally Posted by SourPai

...what makes you think that basics will become right by stopping tunnel road project?
Again my question is same and your point is valid, but how is stopping new infra project is going to make them focus more on this?

Because this is pretty much a money laundering activity, the faster this project is stopped the better. Instead, build a metro.
"...if tunnel roads are constructed, there will be a 2.7 percent increase in the number of vehicles on the road, whereas building the Metro would reduce the number of vehicles by 5.3 percent..."
Link

Originally Posted by SourPai

...bellandur hebbal route, and some patches there are really narrow and congested. And there is no other alternative pathway option. Tunnel road is effort towards alternate pathway

For the love of God! More roads is not a solution. You'll still have a large number of folks travelling alone in a huge 4 wheeler. A frequent Metro is a much better solution. It is safer, environmentally better, causes far less road fatalities and reduces emissions.
"If the Metro is built instead of tunnel roads, according to the report, there will be a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions and particulate matter by 14.8 percent and 18.6 percent, respectively by 2031. Similarly, vehicular emissions of carbon monoxide and nitrous oxide levels will decrease by 27.2 percent and 11.3 percent, respectively.
The report also stated that road accidents will be reduced by 17.7 percent with the Metro instead of tunnel roads by 2031."
Link

PS: What makes you think these tunnel roads won't be tolled? There are ideas floating in this direction already.

Originally Posted by SourPai

I apologies if this comes as pro govt post, but the fact is, I always support any govt which puts efforts for building more roads in this country along with robust public transport. We need more and better roads. Period!

Forget being pro, this sounds like blind support!

[Jazzybala]

Originally Posted by SourPai

Which road they build do you think will not have this hidden agenda. Every infra project will have this. In fact I am sure they are filling their pockets via pothole filling projects also. This is a wider problem that exists in India. Stopping or opposing this is not going to change the mindset

Fair point, but this project feels like is being done with that as the primary purpose and everything else being secondary to it.

Originally Posted by SourPai

Kaveri junction is a fair example, but larger problem is with drain cleaning and other BBMP issues, which are continuing to happen anyways. I am assuming that with a project this large and with such publicity, they will deploy better ways to design it for long term viability

This is the same BBMP that has screwed up multiple flyovers recently, the Tumkur road flyover and the one near Taj Yeshwanthpur over the railway track, the Kormangala Stonehenge has already been mentioned. So i highly doubt their ability to understand long term viability studies.

Originally Posted by SourPai

Most of the developed cities globally have parallel and intersecting roads, that is the ideal model. We can look at Chandigarth also as nearby example. While what you are saying is true, it is equally important to decongest city roads that are very narrow or develop alternate pathways.

The easiest way to decongest the roads is to develop multiple pathways, so people are not forced to take only one route to reach their destination. I used to commute from Wilson Garden to World Trade center regularly a few years back and i had 3-4 options to reach my destination depending on whether I was on my bike, car or public transportation. This cannot be said for any of the newly developed areas like whitefield, hennur, etc. One is forced to take one of of 2 roads to reach destinations there.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by SourPai

I do not understand why people make it as either this or that debate. What is the problem if both the things are happening together?

I agree on the roads. On the tunnel, if BMRCL can build tunnels for the metro, why not for roads? We can't suffer and live fearing somebody will make money off more roads. I have mentioned before - that people opposed the airport flyover between south Bangalore to Hebbal and now airport commuters are stuck in traffic between those places. On public transport, the Metro is niche travel and benefits selected folks. Already, the purple line is jam-packed. The yet-to-be-opened, Yellow, Pink, and Blue lines will further jam the purple line. Is 3rd metro line possible in purple line?

Other mass public transport is buses, which again need roads. In fact, we must have east-west, north-south expressways with proper exits (not 90-degree entry/exits) every 5 km.

We can still have greenery with new roads. Urban landscaping must be stressed. Tree planting along the roadside has stopped and must be started. All BBMP-owned commercial properties must be demolished and converted into lung spaces.

</end of rant>

[am1m]

Originally Posted by msdivy

On the tunnel, if BMRCL can build tunnels for the metro, why not for roads?

One thing to keep in mind is how long it's taken to tunnel even this relatively short distance for the Bangalore Metro. The nature of the rock has necessitated multiple changing of the TBM cutters, delays in getting skilled operators and spares, etc. I believe the record was less than 400 meters in a month (https://indianexpress.com/article/ci...retch-9646653/) So it's anyone's guess how long these considerably longer proposed vehicle tunnels will take.

Also, just because it's underground, doesn't mean the roads above will be free. TBMs require ramps to enter and exit. Kamaraj road has opened to traffic after 5 years. (https://www.deccanherald.com/india/k...-years-3067608)

Originally Posted by msdivy

Already, the purple line is jam-packed. The yet-to-be-opened, Yellow, Pink, and Blue lines will further jam the purple line.

Not sure, but I think more branch and filler Metro lines help de-congest the main lines?

Some of the congestion is simply because there aren't enough trains. The max frequency is now 4 minutes. That can be reduced to 2.5 even with the existing signalling system to reduce congestion during peak hours. And with improved signalling, apparently 90 seconds. (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/74124860.cms)

Originally Posted by msdivy

On public transport, the Metro is niche travel and benefits selected folks.

I take the Metro almost every day. A considerable percentage of the passengers are those who would not have access to personal vehicles. True, the demographic served is not completely the same as BMTC, but it's a much, much better and certainly more reliable experience than BMTC.


So taking all that into consideration, I'd prefer expanding the Metro rather than these proposed tunnel roads.

[SourPai]

Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis

No we don't! The govt. can barely manage existing ones.
"A typical road with regular traffic can accommodate 1,800 passengers per hour per direction (PPHD). In contrast, a single-track Metro rail transit system can handle 69,000 PPHD, which is 38.3 times the road capacity".
That's not me but the IISC saying. Link

I think some of you are making my comments into Roads vs Metro debate.

Let me re iterate - It is not. Metro should always be the first preference and I totally agree. But because metro is cheaper and hence we should not invest in expensive roads is not a fair argument. Let me put it this way - we are going to add 300+Km of metro network in next 10 years. We are not going to do the same for roads within city region. So metro related investments are happening a lot more than roads (in terms of km) and its a good thing

But lets agree to disagree on the argument of "we need more roads". Development has to happen on all fronts, including roads. If you look at some of the statistics on km roads/density, Bangalore scores the lowest. According to Global mobility monitor network, Bangalore fares poorly in road density, almost one third compared to Delhi. And not building more roads is not going to make people to stop buying more cars. Only good public transport can, and that should be first priority as I said earlier also

Some roads are going to be expensive and some are going to be cheaper. Thats the reality of situation.

Mumbai coastal road is a brilliant example of how road network is widened and how it is helping decongest main roads. I am only hoping that Bangalore tunnel roads is equivalent to that and helps in some way

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by SourPai

I think some of you are making my comments into Roads vs Metro debate.

Let me re iterate - It is not.

It is actually.

1. The funds available with the state government are not unlimited; even if these all are based on PPP models.

2. The amount of infrastructure upgrade a city; and importantly it's people can endure isn't unlimited. The metro construction is already choking up the arterial roads. Tunnel projects of such a large setup will make travel within the city even worse.

3. This isn't only a Roads vs Metro. It's a private transport vs public transport argument. Metros, railway lines (MEMU, etc), BRTS - these are public transport models that need to be focused on. More roads, especially through the crowded parts of the city is not the solution. On the other hand something like the STRR and other ring roads are a much-needed investment.

Mumbai coastal road is a brilliant example of how road network is widened and how it is helping decongest main roads.

Only on paper. Or during non-peak hours; which is what you'll see on most pictorial threads on this forum where users end up going on them during non-peak hours and snapping pics.

Check out reports of the entry and exit points for the coastal road; the bottlenecks have shifted over there. I remember someone posting a picture of one of the exit point of the coastal road recently - it was like a replica of peak ORR traffic jams during the monsoon.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by am1m

I take the Metro almost every day. A considerable percentage of the passengers are those who would not have access to personal vehicles. True, the demographic served is not completely the same as BMTC, but it's a much, much better and certainly more reliable experience than BMTC.

.

I do exactly this. I have the choice of getting into my car, reach office and get out with no parking problems but I choose not to. I take a short drive, leave the car, 30 min standing, 10 min walk. Sound complex but not a big deal if I can contribute to reducing traffic. I only take the car if I need to go somewhere else or need to reach office early.

[ShreyG]

On a lighter note, the underground tunnels are supposed to be done by Jan 1st 2025

https://www.indiatoday.in/cities/ben...015-2024-06-19
This June 2024 article does mention a user fee to be levied and that elevated corridors would take 3-4 years to construct, but tunnels will be built in 6 months (maybe they have means something different when they says years and months).

Seriously funny individuals in the BBMP, and if he actually had said that, I would want to have what he is having. Seems like fun!

[NPV]

Tunnel roads for Bengaluru, are we kidding?

Heck, our authorities aren’t even able to manage narrow pedestrian subways that were built few years ago, all are closed now due to various reasons - bad design, neglect, water seepage, unsafe for pedestrians, crime etc. We have a few “magic box” and railway underpasses in Bangalore and they’re repeat offenders when it comes to flooding!

Other than the metro, I have absolutely no confidence that our local governing and civic authorities will be able to create any other underground infrastructure, be it design, build and most importantly manage and maintain tunnel roads; it’s dead on arrival as far as I’m concerned.

Seems like another plan to spend taxpayers money and for individuals in the machinery to make big money, just like the (in)famous “white topping” project.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by akhil_007

I guess you meant Yelahanka "New" Town. Yelahanka Old Town...

I may have got Yelahanka old town mixed up with another place entirely. My apologies. Larger point stills stands.

Originally Posted by SourPai

...

All the other concerns about geological issues etc. are valid, but do we have any evidence to suggest that these are not taken into consideration while designing the road?

You're asking for evidence of a negative. That, by definition doesn't exist. A negative cannot be proven.

What we do have evidence for, multiple decades of it, is none of Bangalore's civic authorities are competent at development of any sort of major public works project.

Take a look at any part of Bangalore developed since the turn of the century. Can you find ONE that has been developed competently? Proper road design & layout, green cover maintained, ecological balance retained, water channels and gradients accounted for, roads that can hold up even one full year without needing repairs, flyovers that aren't crumbling within a decade of construction, whatever your criteria of 'consideration' is.

What evidence can you supply of Bangalore's civic authorities' competence? On what basis are we supposed to believe they can deliver what they're proposing? 'Trust me bro! We'll totally get it right this time.'?

[am1m]

Originally Posted by SourPai

Let me put it this way - we are going to add 300+Km of metro network in next 10 years. We are not going to do the same for roads within city region.

But I believe most planned cities do the opposite - incentivize public transport, while disincentivizing private transport. The whole point of building and investing in public transport is to get people to shift. As you correctly said, people are not going to stop buying/using cars. Even if there is an excellent public transport system with great last-mile connectivity. Not building new roads is one way to disincentivize the use of private vehicles. A better and more gradual way than congestion tax, or odd-even rules, which will always see opposition.

The simple fact is that increasing road width, length, building flyovers, tunnels and extending the city further in all directions is always going to be a catch-up. The vehicles will expand to fill the new roads very quickly. And unless there is a disincentive along with a good public transport system in place, most people will not move.

It's a bit of a myth that the Bangalore Metro is only for the privileged lucky few who live along a line. every day I see schoolchildren, elderly people, vendors, blue-collar workers, inter-state travellers who use local buses, along with the office crowd who can afford cars and bikes. Roads benefit vehicle owners a lot more and are less accessible to the less privileged.

[binand]

Originally Posted by ShreyG

On a lighter note, the underground tunnels are supposed to be done by Jan 1st 2025

The nearby Kuthiran tunnel has a width of 14m and height of 10m, and carries 3 lanes. That is comparable with the proposed tunnel's size.

The TBMs used by BMRCL have a diameter of 5.6m. That is, the cross-sectional area of any TBM that BBMP proposes to use must be ~4x of what we have available.

As far as I know, there is only one TBM in India with that size - the one deployed by L&T in the Mumbai coastal road project. It bores with a speed of about 3 months/km. From the article - 18 km twin tunnels => 36 km to be bored => almost a decade just for boring.

[ShreyG]

Originally Posted by binand

almost a decade just for boring.

That was posted sarcastically
Taking a decade or more is one of main fears for this project. The funds required will also raise exponentially (it has already gone from 8000Cr to 12000Cr in these 6 months IIRC) and we all know whose pockets they would ultimately end up in.

And in this 10 years, the government is bound to change atleast once, which could make it a political tool to be exploited. And we would end up with another unfinished monstrosity with thousands of crores down the drain (literally in this case).

I re-iterate, this seems like another long term retirement plan for the current generation of babus at BBMP, similar to the Bangalore Stonehenge. Just in this case, there is particular interest from a certain minister who portrays himself to be the boss of Bengaluru, making this a scam to the tune of a few thousand crores rather than a few hundred. And we are to just go with it, as usual

[suhaas307]

When I read about these lofty public works undertakings like the tunnel road project proposed to be completed in 6 months by the state government, I can’t help but chuckle.

The BBMP’s term ended in September 2020. Since then, municipal elections have not been conducted.

For 4 years, the BBMP - the city’s sole administrative wing - has failed to elect a representative! This is unprecedented, in the history of the city!

The reasons cited by the BBMP for the stalled election process is apparently ward-reorganisation, which is an exercise that could have been completed in under 2 months! The real reason however is that political figures are unwilling to relinquish control to local corporators.

I was talking about getting the basics right, like fixing the existing roads and improving the flow of storm water to ensure that the repaired roads don’t require further attention. But clearly I was wrong!

When municipal elections are stalled for an unprecedented 4 years, courtesy power struggles between political figures and corporators, I can only imagine what a tunnel road project will do to the war-zone that is the BLR road-network.

Such being the state of affairs, it boggles the mind to read the opinions of folks who support the government and the undertaking of such projects. At the risk of sounding curt, such support fortifies the belief that these good citizens are painfully out of touch with stark realities.