[mayankjha1806]

I am wondering how the online or Bangalore One payment would solve the problem of corruption.

Cop catches me, he tells me i have been over-speeding and the fine is 5K and gives me another option to pay 500 and move on. No one knows i was a traffic offender, only me and him know, so this would work. Unless someone else is watching this whole drama and who cannot be bypassed by bribing, this suggestion would most probably not be very effective.

[HighOctane]

Today's BTP's FB page asks us to avoid Roads around Palace Grounds, Jaymahal road, Tv tower to Mehri circle as there is some relegious functions.

[binand]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Like i said, this was more bangalore specific. As far as i know, most of the new cars registered have their details registered online when a smartcard is issued. Don't know exactly how many RTO's are fully computerized though.

Therein lies the problem. Only "new" cars have this smart card. So, the new fine regime will affect only new car owners.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

On the RTO site a quick search threw up procedures to be followed for change of address for outstation vehicles, something similar would be applicable for change of address within the same state.

So where is the RTO tracking who all are changing addresses? They aren't. There is no incentive to comply to this procedure either. Again, the net outcome would be that only people who actually follow the procedure will get trapped in the new fine regime.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

I agree that record matching between 2 states is still not present. However, the SI can ensure these vehicles ply with a valid NOC, as that will mean both AP and KA RTO's have a record of the vehicle.

So there you are, providing for another transaction between the SI and the errant driver. Another touchpoint where a bribe can change hands.

Also, remember that an NOC is required only for re-registration. The vast majority of outstation vehicles don't belong in this category (think interstate buses/trucks), so they wouldn't have NOCs.

Anyway, I think we are dangerously close to the on/off-topic boundary; so in case you want to consider this debate PM me and we will take it offline/email.

My view always has been that people have to be discouraged from breaking road rules by causing significant loss to the one thing most/all of them ostensibly break these rules for - their time. If the police can find holding areas near major junctions where offenders can be detained (with passengers) for about 15-30 minutes, the problem of rash driving can be curbed to a large extent.

[shashank.nk]

Mods: I know my post is OT,kindly excuse it this one time. Thanks

Guys, when you factor in the low morale and high corruption in our society, any old/new scheme will fail on implementation as the 'smart' chaps will find a loophole in whatever you may bring.

Case in point-The present 'Spot fine' system, it may have been implemented with the right intention, but some people made a quick buck out of it, and now its no more than a source of income,for our cops on roads,albeit illegal at that.

The reason i suggested payment of fines online or through Bangalore One centers is, i feel its time this 'Spot Fine' system goes and is replaced by something more efficient and corruption-proof.

I rest my case

[suhaas307]

I agree with Joslix.

But you must also remember, following rules and being a good citizen comes from the way one is brought up. Every day, I see families on two wheelers. I see the father riding with his 5 year old on the tank and two more kids at the back. All this while going the wrong way and busy abusing everyone who comes in his way.

The kids are bound to learn that the father is right. Why, even education doesn't seem to help.

And that's why I feel we're running out of options. My proposition:

- Make getting a licence very difficult. It must be made a long and tedious process and must involve checking the history of the person.

- Ensure that there must be no transaction between the cop and the violator.

- Put up proper and functioning CCTV cameras everywhere and send these fines to offenders via post. if not paid within a week, the vehicle should be impounded no questions asked.

- Increase cops' pay so that there would be little scope for bribes.

- The hot-shot who proposes a bribe must be taken to task immediately.

[acurafan]

Originally Posted by mayankjha1806

Cop catches me, he tells me i have been over-speeding and the fine is 5K and gives me another option to pay 500 and move on.

I think the performance bonus scheme that works in most highway patrols and city polices in US can mitigate this problem to some extent. In US the traffic fines are around 30% of the total fine. Let's take an example of speeding fine. In state of CA, with recent changes the fines are as follows
$154 for speeding between 1-15 mph
+ 20% State Surcharge = $31
+ State Penalty Assessment = Goes to State police (CA Highway Patrol)
+ County Penalty Assessment (County police)
+ Court Facility Construction Penalty Assessment (Court fees etc)
+ DNA Identification Fund Penalty Assessment
+ Emergency Medical Services (EMS) Penalty Assessment

So a $154 ticket ultimately costs you close to $440 + the insurance hike for next three years which is close to $600-700 hit. The insurance companies also legally sponsor money to CHP and County polices.
Since everyone has got their share and it finally goes to the cops in terms of annual bonuses etc, there is a higher motivation for them to cite more. One can argue that the same cop can take the bribe, but once the legal bonuses are substantial there is a less motivation to take bribes.
The book "The Honest Truth about dishonesty" has a very good research on this phenomenon about when people start to be honest !!

Now one can see how expensive a simple speeding can be. This kind of explains why people mostly follow the rules even when there are no explicit enforcement.

[joslicx]

One thing that the govt can do and that can be effective as well is introduce traffic education (as a whole subject) in schools, lets say at around 6th standard and make it compulsory and make it for 3-4 years. Educate young children about the virtues of obeying traffic laws, encourage them to question their parents or elders if they are breaking any rules. Have kids prepare projects on road safety and all.

Another effective thing that can be done is public shaming. Shame is a big weapon in India. If there is a habitual offender, then his photo and name could be put on some public places with a caption that this guy is a threat to your life because of his bad driving etc. I'm sure nobody would want to be there.

[binand]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

- Make getting a licence very difficult. It must be made a long and tedious process and must involve checking the history of the person.

Yes. Design a test along the lines of the UK/EU license test. Give every current license holder about 2 years to take this test. Further, make re-certification every say, 5 years mandatory. A driving license ought to be a privilege, not a right. I was in the Andheri RTO office a while back, and the license test I saw made me cringe (even worse was the number of people who still failed it).

Originally Posted by suhaas307

if not paid within a week, the vehicle should be impounded no questions asked.

This wouldn't work for the simple fact that all it takes is one vehicle owner to take this system to court and that would be the end of this system.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

- Increase cops' pay so that there would be little scope for bribes.

This is where I really disagree with you - your underlying assumption that a man's integrity is a function of his earnings is an egregious one. Look at the amount of corruption at the highest level (CEO/board level in companies, minister/top bureaucrat level in government) to disprove your hypothesis.

[Zed]

Originally Posted by binand

This is where I really disagree with you - your underlying assumption that a man's integrity is a function of his earnings is an egregious one. Look at the amount of corruption at the highest level (CEO/board level in companies, minister/top bureaucrat level in government) to disprove your hypothesis.

The problem we are discussing has many stakeholders. And the solution must address all of them.
For the public - there must be deterrents that prevent them from committing traffic offenses.
For the enforcement authorities - there must be incentives for implementing systemic changes. And increasing the compensation package will certainly qualify - not just in improving morale and adding a sense of pride to the job but also in attracting talent into the organization.

One the top rungs there are officers that come in via the IAS \ IPS machinery, with good educational backgrounds with fairly reasonable compensation packages. The story at the lower levels is entirely different.

Needless to day its not just compensation but training, appraisals and working conditions that need to be improved in order to aspire for a corruption free agency(ies).

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by binand

This wouldn't work for the simple fact that all it takes is one vehicle owner to take this system to court and that would be the end of this system.

Why? There should be enough proof of the violation on paper and it will be the court that decides whether the person would go scot free. We must not assume that the case would go in the favour of the violator who's car has been impounded for breaking the law.

Originally Posted by binand

This is where I really disagree with you - your underlying assumption that a man's integrity is a function of his earnings is an egregious one. Look at the amount of corruption at the highest level (CEO/board level in companies, minister/top bureaucrat level in government) to disprove your hypothesis.

You've got a point there. But does that mean that the cops should stick to getting paid a pittance? If the collection of bribes are somehow reduced or stopped, the cops will look at other methods to fleece people. They might even get into thievery (which is what they do anyway albeit with a uniform and in full public view)

Corruption is something that's there everywhere. It would be very difficult to completely stop it. But we could try these methods to see where it could take us. Oh, I've got another proposition too.

For serious violations, the DL must be just shredded into pieces then and there. Cancel it totally, and make sure that there is a 4 year or 5 year gap before the person can reapply.

[mannubhai]

My friend parks his car near MG road, under a no parking board and moves on. His logic is, the only parking available is barton centre, ie Rs 50 per hour. If a cop catches him on a no parking, and fines him legally, its Rs 100. If no one catches him, he gets free parking.

Had there been a fine of Rs 1000 or detention for couple of hours, he wont dare to do it.

The reason of bribing is genuine. But for that you cant let off traffic offenders free. A rs 100 fine is definitely not a deterrent today. It would have been one, when the law was made few decades ago. We have not changed the fines based on the inflation.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by mannubhai

My friend parks his car near MG road, under a no parking board and moves on. His logic is, the only parking available is barton centre, ie Rs 50 per hour. If a cop catches him on a no parking, and fines him legally, its Rs 100. If no one catches him, he gets free parking.

Had there been a fine of Rs 1000 or detention for couple of hours, he wont dare to do it.

The reason of bribing is genuine. But for that you cant let off traffic offenders free. A rs 100 fine is definitely not a deterrent today. It would have been one, when the law was made few decades ago. We have not changed the fines based on the inflation.

Dont they just tow away your vehicle if you park in a no parking? I have seen towing happening in lot of places here in Bangalore. I have also seen traffic guy coming and sticking a ticket on the windshield (mostly I've seen this in Whitefield area around Cosmos mall). If you park like that and your vehicle is towed, there can be lot of damage (given the way they tow vehicles) and it will be a very expensive lesson learnt! It might sound sadistic but I hope this happens at least once to anybody and everybody who tries to acts smart like that, just to teach them a lesson.

Also werent the fines revised some time back?? I thought there was a thread regarding same as well. Fines were going to become 10x. I thought it would be implemented nationwide. Aint it so?

[mannubhai]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Dont they just tow away your vehicle if you park in a no parking? I have seen towing in lot of places here in Bangalore. I have also seen traffic guy coming and sticking a ticket on the windshield (mostly I've seen this in Whitefield are around Cosmos mall). If you park like that and your vehicle is towed, there can be lot of damage (given the way they tow vehicles) and it will be a very expensive lesson learnt!

Also werent the fines revised some time back?? I thought there was a thread regarding same as well. Fines were going to become 10x. I thought it would be implemented nationwide. Aint it so?

They dont usually tow away a car. They take the 2 wheelers asif they are taking scrap metal .

They do lock your wheels with that lock they carry, and then put a sticker with their number to come and pay.

Right under my office in lady cruzon road, which is a one way with parking on LHS, we had an incident a week back. A ladt driver parked her car on the RHS and walked away. The building security warned her, she ridiculed and walked away. Traffic came to a full stop. A while later, a cop comes and puts the lock into the car wheel. How sensible !!

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by acurafan

Since everyone has got their share and it finally goes to the cops in terms of annual bonuses etc, there is a higher motivation for them to cite more. One can argue that the same cop can take the bribe, but once the legal bonuses are substantial there is a less motivation to take bribes.

This is brilliant plan.

Originally Posted by mannubhai

Had there been a fine of Rs 1000 or detention for couple of hours, he wont dare to do it.

The reason of bribing is genuine. But for that you cant let off traffic offenders free.

Out of Rs 1000, let Police dept get Rs 100 it is getting now. Rest Rs 900 can be spent on welfare of Police & society. An individual cop might be corrupt and resort to *not* issuing a challan. But when their colleagues find out, that cop cannot continue this for long, since he is jeopardizing the welfare of Police dept itself.

The fine amount must be different for rural & urban areas. But before implementing such a system, infrastructure must be put in place. For instance there must be good enough parking space, so that most law-abiding citizens have a place to park.

[mannubhai]

This is a daily morning affair in the silk board junction towards sarjapur.

There is a full service lane with decorates bus stops. But buses prefer to stop on the main road. Add to that the menace of private tempo travellers, ferrying passengers illegally. They also stop right on the main road. Add the sand trucks that illegally occupy the service road. Add the dis-interested cop who has his eyes on everything that happens, but wont move a finger. He has an additional battalion of cops a few hundred meters away with an interceptor in the blind corner to catch speeding vehicles, who would have grinded their bones to the clutch and brake pedals to get out of the silk board mess.

Adding all this you get the absolute traffic mess.

You can see the pvt bus guy, just ahead of him you see the open door of a TT.