[ebonho]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

The whole question is now on the power. If the power on the 750 is below 40bhp, then no matter the price, people may not pay 5 lacs for a slow 130kmph bike, if the power is close to 60ps (i doubt it), then this would not be a Harley, but a buzzing/high revving Hysoung instead....

Where are you getting the bhp figures from? I thought Harleys never give those out. I doubt anyone buys a Harley for the power and performance anyways. Because in that price bracket I do not think there is any bike in the world that will be slower or lesser powered. Though at the rate Royal Enfield is increasing its prices with every successive model, give it 3-4 years and then there could be some competition. Simply put, this bike would give Indians on a budget the chance to buy into the Harley dream. Don't try to compare your Tbird 500 to the Harley 500 as an apple to apple comparison. Its not. Regardless of the figures.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Where are you getting the bhp figures from? I thought Harleys never give those out. I doubt anyone buys a Harley for the power and performance anyways. Because in that price bracket I do not think there is any bike in the world that will be slower or lesser powered. Though at the rate Royal Enfield is increasing its prices with every successive model, give it 3-4 years and then there could be some competition. Simply put, this bike would give Indians on a budget the chance to buy into the Harley dream. Don't try to compare your Tbird 500 to the Harley 500 as an apple to apple comparison. Its not. Regardless of the figures.

Its obvious I or any other consumer is going to compare, these are motorcycles not luxurious cars Doc. I agree on your statement if I were comparing a luxury car to a SUV in the same price band. A bike in essence is a bicycle with an engine and gearbox. Only advantage a bike would have over the other is more power, ridability and something called character.

A 500 cc Harley doesn't have character for sure, not the vtwin rumble, not the traditional harley vibes, so it needs to be at least having some power to move? If you are going to price yourself double the nearest 500 cc bullet, atleast make it worth the extra 2 lacs.

Forget comparing to a thunderbird, I never made a statement like that, can I compare it to a 220c avenger even? Also with EMI schemes a 7-9 lac 800cc Harley is approx in the same ballpark affordability as a 5 lac 500cc/750 cc Harley!!
All across the world Harley is trying to position the 500/750 as a 'street' motorcycle, then it better have some power to get it moving from one signal to the next, not be a entry level trainer bike used to teach riding to kids below 17!!!

Why does Harley sell, when compared to much much better machines in the same price range? The undiluted v twin cruiser character. Now if you are going to dilute that very essence itself, what are your selling points?

Its the same if tomorrow RE is going to make a Pulsar kind of 200-250cc bike and call it the street or something, you are destroying the soul of your motorcycle, expecting higher sales, sorry such a new concept will be compared to everything else in the market, and you can sell, only when you have a superior product...

Lastly lets have a look at the look and feel of the new Harley twins. They pretend to be a cross between a retro bike and a Vrod, doesn't have the charm of a retro machine, neither the power of the VRod. Infact with the VRod Harley tried to make a performance machine, the first performance machine which didn't rely on twin vibes, oodles or chrome and leather to sell...

[ebonho]

All good points bro. But the Harley (like the Bulet) has never been just about the bike. They give you the whole ownership mela. Clubs/chapters, fancy belt buckles and jackets and logos and patches and bandanas and stuff, call signs, Rider Mania/IBW type annual festival meets, bad boy / cool dude / rebel without a cause (but with a purse) image, etc. You get the scene. Of all the other bikes, only KTM is begining to build on that same theme to an extent with their Orange series events etc. Lets understand one thing. Of 100 guys who buy a bike, probably only 5 or 10 wil be serious riders with technical knowhow and understanding and experience. The rest will and can fit into many categories.

So coming back to this bike. Its a Harley and will give the guy who pays 5 lacs all the added bells and whistles that comes from being a HOG. It looks cool and like a Harley - without being one. Just like a TBird looks like any other Royal Enfield - without being one. The TBird is the top end of the Bullet price band. The baby Harley is the bottom band of the Harley price band. The twain does not need to meet. I suspect Harley knows that there will be more guys who can afford the TBird who will stretch and go for the "cool" baby Harley, than there will be guys who can afford the baby Harley but will use biker common sense and aim lower to get the TBird. Its a great ploy and I feel it will work.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

All good points bro. But the Harley (like the Bulet) has never been just about the bike. They give you the whole ownership mela. Clubs/chapters, fancy belt buckles and jackets and logos and patches and bandanas and stuff, call signs, Rider Mania/IBW type annual festival meets, bad boy / cool dude / rebel without a cause (but with a purse) image, etc. You get the scene. Of all the other bikes, only KTM is begining to build on that same theme to an extent with their Orange series events etc. Lets understand one thing. Of 100 guys who buy a bike, probably only 5 or 10 wil be serious riders with technical knowhow and understanding and experience. The rest will and can fit into many categories.

So coming back to this bike. Its a Harley and will give the guy who pays 5 lacs all the added bells and whistles that comes from being a HOG. It looks cool and like a Harley - without being one. Just like a TBird looks like any other Royal Enfield - without being one. The TBird is the top end of the Bullet price band. The baby Harley is the bottom band of the Harley price band. The twain does not need to meet. I suspect Harley knows that there will be more guys who can afford the TBird who will stretch and go for the "cool" baby Harley, than there will be guys who can afford the baby Harley but will use biker common sense and aim lower to get the TBird. Its a great ploy and I feel it will work.

This I agree with you Doc, the entire branding and the experience is something people are bound to look forward to. However there exists a whole different mentality when someone is buying a bike with spare cash, compared to investing in a bike using EMI. People buying a Harley with spare cash are scarce when then the cash outflow is around 5 lacs compared to splurging out 2 lacs for a tbts500.
Now if I want to invest in a bike using EMI, then for 5 lacs I pay about 10000 per month at the max for a 5 year loan. I can easily pay 13000 per month instead and pick up a 800 low rider? If I were paying cash then it meant I was paying a entry level sedan money for the low rider rather than EON money for the baby Harley. Now when I am thinking about all this, I will be influenced by my friends, colleagues and wifey to be practical and put in 2 lacs for a Bullet and park the rest in a bank.... I will only look at a Harley if (a big if) I am a Harley fan!!. And if I am a Harley fan, I will not even look at these baby Harleys, its only in India that we don't laugh at the 800 cc (lady bikes in Harley speak), try riding a HOG ride with a 500cc, they may not allow you to join even...

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

This I agree with you Doc, the entire branding and the experience is something people are bound to look forward to. However there exists a whole different mentality when someone is buying a bike with spare cash, compared to investing in a bike using EMI. People buying a Harley with spare cash are scarce when then the cash outflow is around 5 lacs compared to splurging out 2 lacs for a tbts500.
Now if I want to invest in a bike using EMI, then for 5 lacs I pay about 10000 per month at the max for a 5 year loan. I can easily pay 13000 per month instead and pick up a 800 low rider? If I were paying cash then it meant I was paying a entry level sedan money for the low rider rather than EON money for the baby Harley. Now when I am thinking about all this, I will be influenced by my friends, colleagues and wifey to be practical and put in 2 lacs for a Bullet and park the rest in a bank.... I will only look at a Harley if (a big if) I am a Harley fan!!. And if I am a Harley fan, I will not even look at these baby Harleys, its only in India that we don't laugh at the 800 cc (lady bikes in Harley speak), try riding a HOG ride with a 500cc, they may not allow you to join even...

The baby Harley is as far from the 800s as it is from the TBird 500. So its classic push-pull marketing at work. If a 5 lacs guy can stretch to 8 lacs, then a 2 lacs guy can stretch to 5 lacs.

The 5 lacs guys still gets a Harley both ways. The 2 lacs guy now moves from Bullets to Harleys. There is a snob appeal you cannot wish away with cold hard logic or common sense. The same snob appeal at work between a choice of a hot hatch versus moving to an entry level sedan by a young ladder climbing executive.

Also, this is India, potentially Harley's next big market after China and Brazil Nobody is going to laugh at 800 riders (or 500). We are really not bothered about what HOGs in the US and EU do. And any guy who listens to his wife and friends while buying a bike, deserves the bike he buys.

End of the day, you will find a lot more Bullet guys revving the hell out of their bikes and extracting all the juice from them compared to Harley guys. How often have you seen a Harley guy ripping? I have never. Not once. They always go by sedately with their bare tattooed arms and katora helmets and sleeveless leather jackets, and Wayfarers/Aviators, and designer neck scarves/face masks. Its very rare to see a Harley guy wearing "normal" biker gear. Not so for Bullet guys (even though the motocross helmets are seriously a bit much .....).

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The baby Harley is as far from the 800s as it is from the TBird 500. So its classic push-pull marketing at work. If a 5 lacs guy can stretch to 8 lacs, then a 2 lacs guy can stretch to 5 lacs.

The 5 lacs guys still gets a Harley both ways. The 2 lacs guy now moves from Bullets to Harleys. There is a snob appeal you cannot wish away with cold hard logic or common sense. The same snob appeal at work between a choice of a hot hatch versus moving to an entry level sedan by a young ladder climbing executive.

Also, this is India, potentially Harley's next big market after China and Brazil Nobody is going to laugh at 800 riders (or 500). We are really not bothered about what HOGs in the US and EU do.

True about the push pull tactics. Only issue I have in riding with a 500 cc Harley in a group is they will be too slow with 25 ps pulling a 220kg bike and 80kg rider. Its like me riding in a bullet group with a couple of mopeds for company. A 500 cc Harley can do a 50-60kmph average speed over a day (much like a bullet) and will be too slow for most of the HOG groups who do far higher speeds than that. And people will start complaining how riding slow for the 500 cc is burning up their engine, producing more heat etc etc. you get the drift...Interesting to see how Harley manages to include the street 500 in a HOG ride.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

True about the push pull tactics. Only issue I have in riding with a 500 cc Harley in a group is they will be too slow with 25 ps pulling a 220kg bike and 80kg rider. Its like me riding in a bullet group with a couple of mopeds for company. A 500 cc Harley can do a 50-60kmph average speed over a day (much like a bullet) and will be too slow for most of the HOG groups who do far higher speeds than that. And people will start complaining how riding slow for the 500 cc is burning up their engine, producing more heat etc etc. you get the drift...Interesting to see how Harley manages to include the street 500 in a HOG ride.

Bro I have ridden with Harleys. Very few of them venture northward of 130-150 kmph. The bikes thmselves do not topout at a whole lot more. Am talkng of "proper" Harleys (1100 cc +) here. Remember, like Bullets, Harleys too are air cooled push rod driven bikes. Agreed there will be a speed differential, and agreed I would like to hear real world reports of how this baby Harley can move, but believe me, in a Harley group, unless its ONLY made up of hardcore riders who have simply shifted from one bike to the Harley, the number of born again riders one gets to see in a typical Harley group (you can make out by the way they start off and ride in slow traffic .....), the pace is never going to be a problem.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by parrys

The Night Rod is liquid cooled. The Superlow and Iron 883 are air cooled.

Originally Posted by Rehaan

I thought the V-Rod was the only liquid cooled one so far, but i guess not.

The Night Rod is nothing but a blacked out V-rod.

Interesting article. The TriGlide apparently has air cooled block and liquid cooled heads!



Please continue the discussion in the 'Street 750 Unveiled' thread:
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