[alpha1]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Understandable then the entire aura of mystery around Harley never quoting BHP figures.

Yes, the claim is that you should feel it not measure it.
Anyway it does lend to a fact that written peak BHP is usually at pretty high RPM (say 5000-7000) for most engines.

Harleys are supposed to be chugged around - perhaps in 1000-2000 RPM range.
Perhaps the bhp in that range is pretty respectable compared to other bike engines. (You know how Honda's car engines are superb in peak bhp figures, but somehow don't have the 1000-1500 RPM grunt).
Perhaps this good power at lower RPM is what gives it the "freight train" pull?

I know there are a lot of "perhaps" in the above paragraph, but that is the only logical way I could think of.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Yes, the claim is that you should feel it not measure it.
Anyway it does lend to a fact that written peak BHP is usually at pretty high RPM (say 5000-7000) for most engines.

Harleys are supposed to be chugged around - perhaps in 1000-2000 RPM range.
Perhaps the bhp in that range is pretty respectable compared to other bike engines. (You know how Honda's car engines are superb in peak bhp figures, but somehow don't have the 1000-1500 RPM grunt).
Perhaps this good power at lower RPM is what gives it the "freight train" pull?

I know there are a lot of "perhaps" in the above paragraph, but that is the only logical way I could think of.

I will never diss Royal Enfield for underpowered overpriced bikes again. At least their 500s still churn out 27 odd bhp and have the same low end grunt as well. And they are singles, as against torquey V twins.

[The BULK]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I will never diss Royal Enfield for underpowered overpriced bikes again. At least their 500s still churn out 27 odd bhp and have the same low end grunt as well. And they are singles, as against torquey V twins.

+1 on that.
RE is worth the price as compared to the so called HD Street 750, i personally feel HD should not ventured into this range. If it is merely to make some quick sales and bucks, this is a

Cheers
The BULK

[dkaile]

Well I found the Street 750 quite well built when I saw it in the flesh. The rear tyre is quite thick for stability on the highways and the front tyre is skinny for easy maneuverability on our congested roads. It has many true blue Harley characteristics. Don't dump the bike till you see it in the flesh. It's a different beast all together and the pictures don't do it justice. The custom options are just fabulous. RE's are still way off the build quality of the Harleys. All the 4 RE's we rented in Goa were functioning but leaking oil, had poor braking, no stability at high speeds even after nearly new tyres and lacked the outright grunt of a Harley. Drive a Harley once and then compare it to RE's. I would avoid just shooting in the dark for the sake of dishing a brand just because it's out of reach.

[Abhi_Automobile]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I will never diss Royal Enfield for underpowered overpriced bikes again. At least their 500s still churn out 27 odd bhp and have the same low end grunt as well. And they are singles, as against torquey V twins.

Originally Posted by The BULK

+1 on that.
RE is worth the price as compared to the so called HD Street 750, i personally feel HD should not ventured into this range. If it is merely to make some quick sales and bucks, this is a

Cheers
The BULK

I think that the power outputs may be for the 500 and 750 cc engines respectively. 47 bhp for a 750 cc Twin cruiser type motor, although not exactly powerful, is actually not very under powered. Cruiser motors are always low bhp, high torque motors.

I personally expect the 750 Rev X engine to be a better performer than the older 883 cc mill that does duty on the Superlow and Iron.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by dkaile

Drive a Harley once and then compare it to RE's. I would avoid just shooting in the dark for the sake of dishing a brand just because it's out of reach.

Apples and oranges in terms of price points bro.

Let Harley produce the same finish and quality and offer its bikes (and parts and accessories) at the cost RE does. Or allow RE the resources and price margins Harley has to retool and produce bikes at prices Harley sells them for. Niether is happening in the near future. So we are left with TECHNICAL (not brand or marque or character or brotherhood or any such) comparisons between two push rod driven bikes. One water cooled, one air cooled. One a V Twin, one a single. Both 500 cc. And the purchase cost involved in the decision for a biker looking at both.

I do find your last statement off the mark though. Guys who diss the marque for being underpowered and over priced, do not necessarily do it because it is out of reach. Otherwise they would be dissing ALL bikes at that price oint or beyond. Which is usually not the case.

I will maintain. 33 bhp from a 500 cc modern liquid cooled V twin IS pretty sad.

What is sadder that one is being asked to pay as much for that as is commanded by a Ninja 650 in the same market. (since we are into apples and oranges comparisons here )

Peace!

P.S. By the looks of it, ALL the hired Bullets you guys rode were 350s. Not 500s. There is a sea change in the initial grunt between the two, if not so much at the top end. And a hired bike will NEVER feel the same as a one man owned and ridden bike, I'm sure you will concede.

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I do find your last statement off the mark though.

P.S. By the looks of it, ALL the hired Bullets you guys rode were 350s.

I think you took that personally Doc, wherein my post was not at all directed towards you, but at the other posters undertones who seem to be commenting without having ever driven a Harley. That the pricing of a Harley is obnoxious is an understatement but then so it is with all the other luxury brands in the market who offer a jump of say 30~100% in quality and demand a premium of 200~500%. Yes, we were driving 350's but having owned a 500 too, nothing much seems to have changed over the years. All our bikes were relatively new. My point was just to see and feel the Harley in the flesh and get a ride on it, if possible, before totally dishing it out. Peace...

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by dkaile

My point was just to see and feel the Harley in the flesh and get a ride on it, if possible, before totally dishing it out. Peace...

Peace bro. No offense taken at all. I normally bash the Bullets a lot (and justifiably so), so its fun to support them and bash the firang Kumbh separated twin, the Harleys instead!

Of course I agree with you about quality and fit and finish, and of course I find the Bullets hugely (obscenely actually) over priced at 2 lacs as well.

But the bhp figures of the Harley has really put things into perspective for me wrt the Bullets.

Inshalla I will maybe own and ride one day myself. Till then, like last evening, I will enjoy outdragging them traffic light to traffic light like I did to two fancy Harleys on MG Road Bata chowk. Riders totally geared (for a change) with some funny looking skater/motocross type strapped on armor (dude!) being the only eyesore. Thankfully full face helmets as well. Big huge K&N pods from the side. Revving their bikes and smirking at my little piddly mosquito Duke. Then the lights changed to green, and with a roar they were off.

And at Wonderland I turned to see where they were .....

Good fun. I had just got the covers off both my bikes after more than two weeks and had warmed both up and washed both of them and was doing the circuit around Camp on both back to back to get the gears and oil and parts moving and the battery juice renewed before putting them back. Maybe next time I'll meet these guys on Doppie and tell you how that went ....

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by ebonho

And at Wonderland I turned to see where they were .....

A Harley that can race will be like a pig that can fly. They are not and will not ever be racing bikes. They will be style statements, relatively fast, torquey monsters fit to give their owners a workout every time they ride it. It's a different brand culture. They are trying to change it somehow for 3rd world countries like India and Brazil by launching the Street which will be more easily maneuverable, lighter and still give you respectable power and stability. But they will still be beaten by a race bike like even the Duke every time they try to race, though on open roads a Harleys top speed will be more than that of the baby Dukes. But a Duke will never have the character or respect that a Harley will carry in the most biker's mind (please don't take this comment personally) and that is where the company encashes the exorbitant pricing. Harley is a aspirational brand whereas Duke is more of a practical offering.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by dkaile

A Harley that can race will be like a pig that can fly. They are not and will not ever be racing bikes. They will be style statements, relatively fast, torquey monsters fit to give their owners a workout every time they ride it. It's a different brand culture. They are trying to change it somehow for 3rd world countries like India and Brazil by launching the Street which will be more easily maneuverable, lighter and still give you respectable power and stability. But they will still be beaten by a race bike like even the Duke every time they try to race, though on open roads a Harleys top speed will be more than that of the baby Dukes. But a Duke will never have the character or respect that a Harley will carry in the most biker's mind (please don't take this comment personally) and that is where the company encashes the exorbitant pricing. Harley is a aspirational brand whereas Duke is more of a practical offering.

Again, nothing personal. Just a few points.

The Harleys can and are tuned into very respectable racing machines. And have been so for decades now. The AMA. The oval track dirt races. Loads of Harleys. Buell if I am not mistaken is a Harley racing offshoot. Not to mention a host of topfuel drag racers and hill climbers, trials, etc.

Agree that on open roads the "big" Harleys pull away from the baby Duke. Don't know if the baby Harley will be able to do the same. Time will tell. Soon. But they really need to give it better rubber man. That 2000 buck MRF Nylogrip in the front is just not happening!

As for character, I agree with you.

Where I do not agree is the respect and the aspirational value. KTM in less than quarter of a century has more street cred and global biker respect than Harley has collected in more than a century of existence. In fact, as machine to machine, the Hrleys internationally are a bit of a punching bag (in terms of reliability and performance - leave alone rider cliches), while KTMs are pretty much the bad boys of hardcore riding in most conditions, with World championships to their name to base their reputation on. Can't recall a single world championship won by Harley (not counting biker buildoffs of course .....)

So much so that till a few years ago most of us could never dream of riding a KTM. Today there are a few thousand riders in India who are living that dream. That's aspirational. And I am currently aspiring for another cult from the same marque - the Duke 690.

[the VTEC guy]

Originally Posted by alpha1

..So the 750 cc engine is either 25 kW or 35 kW (33 hp or 47 hp)

I think the 500cc version will be 33 bhp and 750 cc 47 bhp? No point of tuning the 750 cc bike in such variation in power.

[ArizonaJim]

It will be interesting to see how the people in India who are interested in motorcycles accept these two new Harleys.

Harley-Davidson in the US has attempted several times to sell smaller motorcycles. Each time it has resulted in total failure.

To the Harley-Davidson owners here in the US, anything smaller than 1000 cc's is thought of as being less than a real Harley. This includes the 883 Sportster which most Harley owners think of as not worth owning.

It's a macho thing. A Harley thing.

This brings up the question, will the current Harley riders in India and the people who want a 800+cc Harley think of a water cooled 500 or 700 as a "real Harley", or will they think of it as a cheap Harley, only owned by a Harley wannabe?

Only time will tell.

[nanduchitnis]

If the 500 cc HD is priced below Rs 4 lakhs, will it impact sales of Royal Enfield bikes?

IBW was swarming with 1000 odd HD bikes.

[The BULK]

Originally Posted by dkaile

I think you took that personally Doc, wherein my post was not at all directed towards you, but at the other posters undertones who seem to be commenting without having ever driven a Harley.

If by the other poster is meant to be directed to me, just to make it clear, I have had my share of riding a Harley SuperLo & Iron 883,(but never owned one) and have owned the RE 500. No offence, and none taken as well. But am just bothered on the quality of build and the cost cutting that is seriously apparent on the Street 750, with a price tag of 4.64l it is All am saying is that HD is a brand and there is a certain charm and feel on owning and riding one. Just felt let down by the brand that is all.

Originally Posted by ebonho

But they really need to give it better rubber man. That 2000 buck MRF Nylogrip in the front is just not happening!

Again +1 on that.
Those are the worst tyres that could have been considered for a bike from the HD stables.

I personally felt let down when I saw the bike, though it remains to be seen in the flesh, and I might reconsider couple of my thoughts, though the tyres .

Cheers
The BULK

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

It's a macho thing. A Harley thing.

This brings up the question, will the current Harley riders in India and the people who want a 800+cc Harley think of a water cooled 500 or 700 as a "real Harley", or will they think of it as a cheap Harley, only owned by a Harley wannabe?Only time will tell.

Well said. In my mind (perhaps, in most of us minds) is the same thing.

If you ride a harley then your a macho big guy with tatoos, girls hanging on precariously to back seat in skimpy clothes, handle mustaches, long beard/hair, bandanas etc..

Though Iam not a huge fan of Harley from the begining for some reason or the other (especially of bikes that are sub-1000cc) and when i think of Harley it is usually has to be the big ones that are well above a litre that IMO like you subtly mentioned truly live up to reputation of "Real Harley"

Having said that, I may change that perspection as Iam yet to ride one and hopefully will do a TD sometime soon.

Coming to HD750, I concur with all views shared here. The cost cutting is glaringly visible and its almost like RE has built the 750 (including using their components)....Come on, my 500cc has better tyres. If not Metezlers, atleast Michelins.

Exhaust looks really sad and thing that really put me off 750 apart from tyres is the instrument cluster. I know its a trend to keep it simple but, looks like from 50's era with built quality too brought in from that period.

I was looking forward to this bike. After seeing it, it neither appeals to me visually or specs wise. My conscience is clear now...LOL